[Podcast] Archetypes & Storytelling with Carol Pearson

[Podcast] Archetypes & Storytelling with Carol Pearson

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What stories are you living? What about your brand?

And how do you manage that meaning?

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With Archetypes.

And who better to discuss the power of archetypes than Carol S. Pearson?

Carol is the co-author of “The Hero and the Outlaw: Building Extraordinary Brands Through the Power of Archetypes” (Published 2001), alongside Margaret Mark.

This book has been incredibly influential in the brand strategy space as its ideas on archetypes have been taken and used to align teams and intentionally build brands.

Carol’s latest work focuses on exploring how archetypes show up in individuals and her recent book is called “What Stories are You Living? Discover Your Archetypes, Transform Your Life.

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In this episode, Matt Davies and Jacob Cass discuss Carol’s work – both past and present – to uncover the power of archetypes and how this knowledge should be used and how it should not.

Also, see our previous episode on Brand Archetypes with Stephen Houraghan.

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Show Notes


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Transcript (Auto Generated)

Hello, and welcome to JUST Branding, the only podcast dedicated to helping designers and entrepreneurs grow brands. Here are your hosts, Jacob Cass and Matt Davies.

Hello, and welcome to this exciting episode of JUST Branding, folks. It’s Matt Davies and Jacob Cass here with a very, very special guest. We have Carol S.

Pearson. If you don’t know Carol, she’s an American author and educator. She develops theories and models with an applied practical bent and is well known for her building on the work of Carl Jung.

So if you’re into your psychology, this is going to be an interesting discussion. She’s currently on a mission to help individuals and groups realize their potential by trusting their authentic motivations and strengths and remain open to growth through interaction with diverse others, situations and challenges. Now, I came across her book many years ago, The Hero and the Outlaw, Building Extraordinary Brands Through the Power of Archetypes.

I think that was published in 2001, which she co-authored with Margaret Mark. And it’s been hugely influential in the brand strategy space and its ideas on archetypes and managing meaning have been really taken and used to align teams and build all sorts of brands across the globe. Her latest work focuses, though, on exploring how archetypes show up in individuals.

And her recent book is called What Stories Are You Living? Discover Your Archetypes, Transform Your Life. This is why I love doing this podcast, though, Jacob, because I get to meet my heroes.

And Carol, you’re one of our heroes. Like we often talk about your book that was written many years ago. So it’s an absolute honor to have you on the show.

Thank you for carving out the time.

Thank you so much. Nice to be with you.

I think we should just also thank someone who was on one of the earlier episodes this season, our good friend Meg Capina, who I believe has been on one of your retreats. And she kindly dropped our name in to you. And, you know, you sent me your latest book just because she said that.

Isn’t that wonderful? So thank you to Meg. And thank you, Carol, for listening to Meg and kind of approaching us about this.

It really is an exciting thing. Now, enough of that twaddle. Let’s get into something meaty.

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I think the first thing I guess we’d like to do is just take you back to around 2000, 2001. And the book, The Hero and the Outlaw, you know, how did it come about to be written? That would be a useful kind of starting point, I think.

Sure. Teaching at a university, running a leadership institute. And I get a call from Margaret Mark.

And I have written a book called Awakening the Heroes Within, which has these 12, same 12 archetypes, and about human development. And she says, hi, I’m Margaret Mark. I’m from YNR, advertising agency, and we’re using your work.

And I went, oh, is that a good thing or is that a bad thing? I don’t know. And in part because I had a sense of it, paying attention to some of the commercials that were coming out.

And I’m worried that they were not doing it in a way that would be a very good way to use archetypes. But it turned out, and so my first instinct was to back off because she wanted me to come visit with them, which I did. And I got very impressed.

They were really using the archetypal energies and identities well. And they had done in this research where they discovered that companies that had a consistent brand identity by archetype made more money and their stock prices went up. And I thought, well, that’s interesting.

So in any case, I love Margaret. And she and I ended up writing this book together. But the concern I had was that if people didn’t understand archetypes, they would just treat them as stereotype and as just sort of slapping an image on a product or a company.

It would have nothing to do really with anything that was true about the company or the product. And it wouldn’t carry the depth that archetypes do. And there’s also a danger in using archetypes.

I have to tell you, the danger is you invoke that energy when you use them. And they have very primitive sides to them and very evolved sides. And if you’re using them badly, they can come get you.

I’m looking forward to diving into both of those kind of sides to using archetypes in just a minute. But it occurs to me that some people listening may not fully appreciate what we’re talking about. So I guess it would be helpful to…

Could you tell us what is an archetype? And shall we just… I think we could list out, you know, the 12 archetypes.

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I don’t think we want it to be about all of them individually this episode. But just give us a sense of what they are.

Well, the term archetype only means universal pattern. It’s a universal pattern that you can see. You can see it in nature, a spiral of water going downhill are all archetypes.

But we’re talking about archetypes that are patterns of human psychology that have… That we can see in what people have created from the earliest times that we have. We have records to now.

And I’m personally fascinated by the way that these archetypes have an image usually related to a character that we might recognize. And a storyline that has to do with something that they urge you to do. Maybe I could say that about a couple.

I mean, the ones that were in The Hero and the Outlaw are The Innocent, The Regular Guy Gal, The Caregiver, The Warrior, The Hero is, I always call it The Warrior in every other book, but I do see it called The Hero there.

There’s Margaret Mark’s influence there, baby.

Yeah, it was Margaret, but we’re also influenced by who’s going to be using it and how they see things. The seeker, the lover, the creator, the outlaw, or sometimes we use revolutionary, the ruler, the magician, the sage, and the fool, or the fool jester, the jester. And what I would say about these is that every one of these archetypes, when we live their story, helps us develop equality.

I’m not going to go through all 12, but say the caregiver archetype, you live that story and you become like a really helpful person. You’re compassionate, you’re helpful. And if, you know, if it’s the hero warrior, it’s you become strong and determined and focused to overcome obstacles.

And so in any organizational life, in the organizational lives and also in individual lives, as we live those stories, we actually gain their gifts. And but we also, we also can watch out for what their liabilities are.

The dark side.

I’m looking forward to this part.

Well, can I just ask before we do that? So these 12, you know, they come from Jungian psychology, I believe, or the concept of archetypes was a concept.

Yeah, the concept, yeah.

Yeah, that spoke about. So how did you, and this is kind of, I just want to get a little bit deep because sometimes I get asked this, like, well, how do we know, you know, how do we get land on these 12? Like, how did you get to that point?

Were there others that you discarded? Because the 12 that you’ve got, as you mentioned, they link very much with them, with kind of motivational theory and some of the, you know, some of the kind of more, more deeper psychology on what kind of intrinsically motivates us as humans. But I just wondered if you had any insights there, because I think that would be really interesting for us to…

Yeah, I mean, the sadist is an archetype and so is the masochist, but I didn’t want to develop those qualities in myself. So I have a background that combines psychology and literature. So I’m fascinated with stories.

That’s part of it. And so it was archetypal stories that I see around me now, not just an ancient something or other, but now, but they’re still archetypal, that they existed at those times.

And that it was part of my decision making. Do they have the impact of developing positive qualities? So all kinds of archetypes would not have been part of this really good cause effort.

Yeah, it’s fascinating because my understanding is that, Jung, I’m not an academic, or as you could probably tell, but my understanding from Jung is that he also was in that similar space and that he was looking at the world around him, dealing with, you know, I think he was dealing with patience and stuff. And he also was an expert in ancient myths and religions, and he was a specialist in dreams, if I remember correctly. So he kind of connected the now, what he was seeing in his world at the break of the 19th century, with ancient philosophy and ancient stories and ancient myths.

And he saw those connections, he referred to them as archetypes. And, you know, so it’s interesting that you’ve taken those principles and then deployed them, you know, around. And I love that slant, that lens on positivity, because that’s one thing that is great when you’re exploring them.

They all have this really kind of, you know, beautiful side, this really positive side. As you say, they have a dark side. So let’s look at the dark side for a second.

How is it that something can be both so wonderful, but also have this horrible side to it as well? Like, have you ever sort of picked that apart?

Well, you know, sometimes it’s just the more primitive expression. You know, there’s a difference, you know, Attila the Hun, as a warrior, is not necessarily what we want right now. Although I sat next to a guy on a plane once who was reading a book about how he could be like Attila the Hun.

I did not grab it out of his hand.

What are you saying? I’m not familiar with that.

Attila the Hun? Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, this was the this was the leader of the army that basically wiped out the Roman Empire.

Visi Gotho, one of the Gothic tribes.

I mean, he was just vicious. I mean, he just came in and slaughtered everybody. It kind of makes sense now.

But as a friend of mine said, well, it was the end of the Roman Empire, but Italy is still a really nice place to visit.

Fantastic. Well, let’s shift the conversation a little bit then. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about why it is that archetypes are kind of a great framework for us to kind of understand if we’re looking to manage meaning or if we’re looking to understand ourselves, our businesses and the meaning that we have in the world.

That’s probably a big question, but why are they a good thing? Why do they work? Why are they there?

I guess is a bigger question.

Would you mind if I just say one more thing about the dark side? Oh, yeah. And then I will go exactly where you want me to go.

If you’ve ever, you’ve known people who are high in the caregiver archetype, they can be, you know, Mother Teresa, you know, very highly developed, evolved, caring. Person gives sacrifices for others and takes care of them. Or the guilt tripping martyr.

Because very often, and this is different than the primitive side, it’s overdoing something. Where you so overdo it that it starts, it starts crumbling. And the negative possibility is there.

So why should we go? Because we can know a lot about meaning when we look at archetypes. They have existed the whole time.

They’re human beings. We can find out so much about them. Our psyches recognize them.

So if you’re going to use it for branding and you are a global company that is international, or national, it is really handy if everybody recognizes that archetype. It sort of calls for it. They would like it or not look at it as a meaning structure that the human psyche understands.

Now, you may have to, if you were using a particular archetype in another country, you may want to see the difference between the stories they tell within that archetype and the figures they use, like the difference between a European or American soldier and a Japanese samurai. You know, you’d have to, you have to pay attention to the cultural differences, but underneath the cultural differences they hold. Now, I think that is really cool.

So powerful. Yeah. Cross-cultural and cross-time.

And easily recognizable. And which is, you know, some of the best companies are really able to, to get incredible loyalty from their customers because that brand has connected with something in them.


You mentioned loyalty. Just on the topic of that, before we go to Matt’s question, what are the other benefits from using archetypes? I think we touched on a little bit, but the fact that you said loyalty, are there any other intrinsic benefits that you think can come from using archetypes?

It’s nice to actually be promoting positive human qualities in what you do. It’s easier to have a good reputation if that is what you’re doing. That’s another one.

You can begin to see, you can anticipate where you might screw up by what that archetype does. It can keep you from following every trend out there, like, it’s more, I think it’s more like the tortoise and the hare, if you know that children’s story. You know, it’s consistency.

It can be so consistent that people know who you are and they, but it also helps with social media marketing and everything else that archetypes, because they’re, they are as big as they are, have infinite potential for telling different stories about them that are all reinforcing that same construct of meaning. And you don’t have to be this brand, this minute and that brand the next minute, just because something else is cool. You could just find the cool side of what it is that you are saying you are.

That’s brilliant. Yeah. So just reading between the lines there, like I was writing some keywords down that you said, but consistency, knowing who you are, that’s such a huge element for a brand.

So you, like you said, don’t go off on a tangent or a trend. You know your focus and you can tell the right story to the right people.

And the most interesting use is I created a cultural instrument, a team and cultural instrument at one point, which Kinexa bought and then Kinexa got bought by IBM. And they were actually using it to look at the culture of a company. And with the idea that if the brand matched the culture, the people who work there will naturally do the right thing.

And classic examples is caregiver brands where the customer service people aren’t even nice to you. You know, that’s crazy. And so that’s another real advantage.

And it’s particularly helpful to large companies that are not so global that they don’t have a culture. Exactly. And they’re kind of a ruler network that keeps everything steady.

If I might just squeeze in something here, I think what we’re talking, I often find and I often talk to my clients, so I’m a business consultant, and I often find that I say, look, we need something to align everybody, right? It has to be authentic and true. It has to be something that we can utilize to live into in the future, like you were saying, but we need a concept that aligns everybody.

And if it’s a global company with thousands of employees, you know, archetypes once explained and delivered, and that’s the hardest bit, right? Getting everybody to understand it. But if you can do that powerfully, you know, it’s super interesting, you know, because what then happens is they see themselves as a collective.

And I often, you know, use the phrases like, we’re a character in the customer’s story, right? So we show up archetypally for that need and that motivation. And if you can do that, wow, like, that’s super interesting because then, and this comes on to a point you made at the start around the dangers, it can’t just be a veneer, can it?

It’s got to be true to the meaning of actually what you’re doing for a customer, as well as how they experience you, as well as how you communicate with them. It’s the whole, the whole being of a business. So if you’re looking for a system to manage meaning and you need to, you take branding seriously, like that’s, that’s, you know, why wouldn’t you go back to Archetypes, which is deep seated into everybody’s mind within, as in within the organization, but also without, within customers’ minds.

And so that’s, I think that’s what you were saying. I don’t know.

I would add two things here. One is if, if particularly your marketing people have read The Hero and have read, what story are you living? They can find that archetype inside them.

Ooh, nice.

Yeah, which is good. And the other thing I would add is something I hadn’t thought of, but the IBM is doing. They’re actually using, they’re helping, I don’t know that they do it themselves, but they’re helping other companies that they work with get archetypal clarity in order to hire people that will fit their culture.

And that will stay. And then the executives can be careful to make decisions that are congruent with that meaning. And what that does is it’s one step past, you know, all the good stuff you’re saying is that if it’s true enough, everybody doesn’t have to have that archetype active in them.

And it wouldn’t be good if everybody was dominated by the same archetype, but had access to it and like it.

There’s a way in which the company can just start being much more efficient and effective by making decisions that are congruent with the brand identity that is also true. So the people who are working there are delivering on that. I mean, how great is that?

I don’t think there are a lot of companies doing that, but they should.

I agree that they should. Quick question. When you wrote the book 2000, did you have any idea of the influence that that might have in this branding space?

Like, did you think, oh, maybe people adopt this? Were you surprised about that? Or were you kind of like, yeah, of course they were.

This is needed. What’s your sort of looking back 22 years later? You know, what’s your sort of…

No, I just hope that they stop using it badly.

So how do people use it badly? Let’s just tuck into that briefly.

No, I really already said it. They use it badly by not doing what they’re doing. You know, and just treating it as a brand personality, just a personality.

And going back to Jung and people, Jung was always looking and a Jungian analyst named James Hillman took this even further about helping people find their complex, what makes them sick, but also what is their real authentic archetypal energy. And that was beautiful. But then that’s finding yourself.

Then there’s what do you show the world? And what you show the world is the part of yourself, because we’re all, organizations are complicated. We’re complicated.

That they want. That is where, what your contribution to the world could be. Your extroverted self.

What you could offer that somebody wants. And which means that the brand identity doesn’t have to be the central core of an organization’s identity. It just has to be a core.

I mean, if in fact it’s their fundamental values, that’s cool. And all most big companies, our data has shown, will when they test out on what their culture is, it starts out ruler and warrior or hero. Yeah.

And that’s because they’re big companies, they have to be ruler. They have to have all those rules and regulations and everything. And they’re capitalist, you know.

You’ve got to win, make those sales. So it’s often the third archetype that captures, that is not either one of those, but it is connected to some value that they hold in common. That is not so common, not necessarily what every other big company is doing.

That’s really fascinating. Because it comes into those cliches, right? Like the hero, the outlaw and like even sporting brands, for example, it’s all about like the hero.

But if you go a little bit deeper, you can differentiate yourself and make yourself distinctive by having a third value that’s actually unique to a competitor or so forth. My question is, what’s the difference between doing this for people versus brands?

Well, people are simpler. Really, it’s one person. Because when you’re doing it with brands, there’s the company, there’s the products.

And many companies now are branding a lot of their products separately, which I understand why they have to do that. And although it’s good if the parent company for all those brands, at least has a reassuring brand of its own, like caregiver or ruler or something solid. But you have to know the company, you have to know the products.

You know, in what field are you in? What is the competition in that field? What is going on in the world?

And, you know, and what are people also craving, needing? What’s missing? You know, what’s missing?

So, you know, it’s very complicated. Branding for organizations is very complicated.

So another, this is really interesting about the branding versus people, because like brands, we, you know, kind of put it together, but with people, you know, are you born with it? Is it something that is integral to that person? Or is it shaped by the environment?

Or like, what’s your point of view on that?

All of the above. I mean, to quote Jung, you know, he just different, he said the persona is a mask you wear to the world. But he didn’t mean it was, it was a mask like in the ancient Greeks wore masks in drama to call forth that archetypal energy.

So there’s a difference between, he didn’t say, he didn’t, he wouldn’t say that your brand has to be what is your deepest, darkest or lightest or most wonderful quality. You can be, let’s, some people are way beyond where the culture is, but they need their persona to connect with the world. And a company needs to do that too.

So, no, that’s what’s different, I think.

Can I come in there? I just got a thought on that. So it’s interesting, and this touches on something you talked about earlier, because, you know, if I look at myself, for example, okay, so I’d love to think my wife would say I’m a great lover archetype, right?

I’d love to think my kids…

You’re the fool, mate.

You know, I’d like to think that. I’d hope, I don’t know, my accounts, I don’t know, I don’t know, I hope my bank would think I’m a good kind of like sage archetype and I keep everything in order or whatever, I don’t know. But the point is that, so archetypally, you show up differently in different parts of your life.

But when it comes to then, you know, if I’m working in a team or I’m working with a leader, you know, I don’t want to show them, you know, my kids hopefully would think I’m a good caregiver, but you don’t kind of want to show those sides in certain contexts. So if you’re aware of what meaning you want and you feel is authentic, but you require to get to serve others or to get the job done, that’s super powerful because you can then, you know, think about that. And I do some stuff around personal branding on that because I think it’s like a lot of young people, particularly when they come out of university or whatever, they’re kind of just doing, they’re doing lots of things and it’s like, no, you need to kind of manage this.

You need to think it through. You know, one minute you’re posting a picture of you out at a party, fooling about like a jester, and the next you’re trying to go for an interview with quite an important company. So how do you manage that and how you tone that is a part of, I think, growing up and a part of maturity.

But archetypes can help frame that. I assume you agree with that.

Let me just put what Jacob was saying together with what you’re saying because how do we know why we are who we are? I mean, yes, you know, there’s a great book, The Soul’s Code, and it says we’re born with it. It may be true.

I like that idea. But we know we’ve been socialized and that we continue to be socialized all the time. And we know that it’s part of various roles we play, which is another way of talking, Matt, about what you were talking about, require us to show up differently.

Now, ideally, we don’t show up so differently that people don’t have a sense of who we are.


But with people, I encourage people to have a flow of archetypes. Once they have a sense of how they need to show up at work, because that’s really where the branding comes in, you know, with whatever you’re doing. You know, that also captures what you’re good at and what you can offer the world.

Other than that, we go through life and we need to be able to connect with, you know, to go to a party and have our justers show up and, you know, and be with our kids and have our caregivers show up, our lover with our lover. You know, so all of that is true. And similarly, companies with or people with a brand identity need to stay true to it publicly.

And because, you know, the people who are close to us or that we work with us know us. So our identity is probably pretty transparent to them as we do our various roles. And we show up as us.

And particularly if we thought a little bit about who we are and what we want to be. Nevertheless, companies don’t have that advantage. You know, companies will need and people who will need to flow with various archetypes as needed when they hit new crises and new situations, they have to do that.

But their public image needs to stay within that archetype because otherwise people won’t remember who they are and remember why they like them. You know, Apple can’t suddenly stop being revolutionary. They just can’t.

You know, their brand identity is so secure, but they could lose it easily. They don’t have to be good. They don’t have to be a lot of things, but they have to be revolutionary.


Which is difficult in its self. Carol, I had a question about your skills identifying archetypes, both in people and companies. Is this something you can do off the bat?

Like you meet someone and like, how long do you have to know them? Or is it a little bit more complex?

Well, one, with people, I don’t walk around typing them in my mind. You know, I have, actually, we have guests coming tomorrow and the woman of the pair is like a walking caregiver though. She is like a positive caregiver archetype expressed in the world.

She’s just doing good all the time. And, you know, so there are some people, the John Wayne is warrior-ish, you know, and certain other people are like that. Branding of, no, I can’t do that with a company, I can’t, you know, and I think to do it well, you don’t just do it off the seat of your pants.

You really look at their history, what their founding dream was. I mean, there’s a lot you have to know to do that branding well. So you can, and you know, and research with the consumer research about how people respond to what you think you might be.

You know the field. And no, I can’t. And even if I could, I wouldn’t.

As well, like if you saw a brand and you knew it, could you dissect it, reverse engineer it to be like, okay, this brand is this quite easily? Is it as easy as that or is it more complex? Like, I was just wondering how you would actually break it down if you were studying other brands?

Well, I have a story for you.

Love stories.

Margaret and I had been working with this little recreational center for a whole county. Wonderful place. Very close to a big city where people were driven and exhausted.

And we thought, and they didn’t have a lot of money, so we had to come up with something quick. So we thought they were a gesture group. So we were on the eighth floor of a building that has huge windows looking out.

And Margaret is giving a presentation about other gesture brands and how they do that and why she thinks this would be the case. I am looking out, and there are people in shorts and T-shirts with their caps backwards. And some of them have little things to play with in their hands.

And they’re saying, we are not a gesture brand. We’re serious. We really study all this thing and then go on.

How will we get money if we do that? And as we did that, Margaret took the PowerPoint down and the lights went on. And they opened the window.

And there was a window washer. And he was swinging back and forth, washing the window with a big grin on his face. And we said, the archetype just showed up.

You don’t think you’re just a brand. Okay, here it is. But that didn’t happen very often.

That’s unbelievable. Brilliant.

Well, it’s really true.

I love it. So here’s a question for you, Carol. Which archetype do you most gravitate towards just in your work?

Like, I guess, is it the sage because you’re very sort of, you know, well-read and academic and knowledgeable? Is it that one? Or is it the caregiver?

You’ve referenced that a few times in the conversation. Maybe you’re a rebel. I don’t know.

What’s your personal sort of view on the dominant one in your life?

In my life? I think my aspiration is magician because I’m always wanting to transform everything that I do, everything that goes around me and write books and transform people’s lives. So that’s my aspiration.

I think I often come across as a lover and not in the sort of fancy romantic sense, but in the care and the sort of lover who builds community and likes people and things like that.

The deep connection.

And I’ve discovered that I should wear a T-shirt under my blazers when I’m in a job interview and open the blazer and the T-shirt says, don’t hire me unless you want revolution.

I’m a closet revolutionary.

Jacob, what’s your desired one? I’ll be keen to know yours. What’s your sort of aspirational one?

Aspirational one? I think I’m very much in the explorer camp. I love new things or I’m super curious and I love adventure.

The magician definitely because I’m a designer. I love transforming. I work in strategy and I kind of allude to transformation as well.

I never really considered myself the lover, but when you mentioned community and connection, I built community and I really enjoy that. So that was like a new revelation for me when you mentioned that. But yeah, I think my core is like explorer, maybe a little bit of sage, you know, like sharing wisdom.

But yeah, explorer is like…

No, you’re totally an explorer. In fact, just before we came on air, I was like, Jacob, how’s it going? He was like, yeah, I’m just about to go off on holiday again.

I was like, he’s always traveling the world, Carol, but he is a classic explorer, but an explorer of ideas as well. I’m going to answer my own question, because I love the… I think I’m an aspirational magician as well, but I think I have a mix of a bit of Jester in there, because I like to enjoy things.

Someone said to me the other day, you’re a bit of a showman, aren’t you? And I thought they probably said it a bit tongue in cheek, but I thought, actually, you know what? Yeah, I probably am.

I can’t help it. That’s kind of at my core. So yeah, maybe a bit of a Jester magician.

You love the stage. Why not? Why not?

You know, it’s cool.

Yeah. How wonderful. By the way, on the lover community thing, I’ve got a new favorite author just to just to learn about lover and community.

It’s Frederick Bachman, a Scandinavian author. And it’s all about it’s all about it has a little magician in the sense that shifting perception is very important to be able to see things differently. But the other part is things, terrible things are happening, you know, somebody suicidal and cry looks like a horrible crime has been committed.

And somebody, not anybody important, looks at what’s happening, sees it differently, has empathy for a person that needs it and creates community that transforms everybody. I mean, it’s awesome work and it’s lover work. And it reminded me that Shakespeare’s comedies were all about, were not just about the couple getting together, they were about when the couple got together, they went out from the woods, got away from all the rules, people in disguises, and when the couple got together, it banded the families that had been warring or whatever together.

And that part of the lover, I think, is enormously important in the world today.

What was the name of the book, sorry?

A Man Called Obi, Anxious People, The Bear Town, Bear Town is amazing, they’re all amazing, and fun. Fun.

Easy read.

So we’re going to start to kind of wrap things up. It’s been a fascinating discussion, but I just wanted to ask you, before we kind of do that, tell us about your current work, because obviously you’ve mentioned you work with individuals. How does that kind of look?

Is it leaders? Is it anybody? Is it communities?

Talk to us about the sort of general activities that you’re currently focused on.

Well, any of those things, although more workshops, I’m doing workshops with people, and writing. I may love people, but I’m not too much up close, you know. What I try to do is download everything I know, and help people help themselves.

I’ve spent a lot of time in my life as a leader, where I worked on building community and things like that. But now, at this point in my life, I am more about being a writer. And I actually write my books so that I don’t have to go work with everybody.

I think the other part of that is I want people to own the work. I love this one. I had a guy who came up to me after a lecture, and he had one of my books totally marked up, all the work.

And he said, I don’t know if this is your book or my book. And I said, that’s what I’m looking for. You know, helping people to find their own truth, building off mine.

Fantastic. Final question. How do people get in touch with you or find out all about your books and so on?

Any kind of places on the web or anything you want to point us towards?

Sure. It’s really hard. www.carolspierces.com.

And there’s also on there, you can send me a note, a form submission. You can send me a note. I’m also on social media, Facebook, Twitter.

And there’s also the Pearson Marr Archetype Indicator that you can take to find out what archetypes are active in your life. It has its own websites called www.storywell.com.

Story well, did you say?

Story well, yes, story as in I like a well. One word.

Thank you so much, Carol. It was fascinating. I love this conversation.

It’s just the differences between personal and brands and how they all mix together. It was brilliant. So thank you so much for your time.

Oh, thanks. Fun talking to you.

Yeah. Thanks, Carol. Take care and really appreciate, as I say, you carving out the time for us.

Thank you.

Thanks. Bye bye. Bye.

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