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[Podcast] How to Launch a Brand in 10 Days with Brand Sprints (Special Guest: Eden Vidal)

[Podcast] How to Launch a Brand in 10 Days with Brand Sprints (Special Guest: Eden Vidal)

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Sick of long winded brand building processes that take months and loose momentum?

Then you need to know about “Brand Sprints“!

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In this ‘scrappy’ episode we jump into the magical world of sprinting.

We speak with the brilliant Eden Vidal, founder of Under. His studio helps businesses define their strategy, positioning and identities in just 10 days.

We tuck into how this is achievable, the benefits of sprints, how to conduct them, where the pitfalls lie and how to overcome them.

Get ready to reframe your thinking, reimagine your process, push the boundaries and embrace the scrappy nature of brand sprinting!

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Transcript (Auto Generated)

Hello, and welcome to JUST Branding. The only podcast dedicated to helping designers and entrepreneurs grow brands. Here are your hosts, Jacob Cass and Matt Davies.

Hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of JUST Branding. We’re really excited today because we have the one and only Eden Videl on the show. Who is Eden?

Eden is the founder of a design studio out of Israel called Under Design that he runs with his wife, Emberl. And he’s here. He’s actually tuning in from Thailand because of all the trouble in Israel.

But we’re super thrilled to have Eden on today. Why are we talking to Eden? Because Eden, I came across Eden a year or so ago running brand sprints.

And so I had a project that I was running with Ashley Hansberger and Sonny Bernal for Vision Camp. And we worked with Eden on some sprints to get Vision Camp a new brand identity and a positioning. And so we folded a lot of his team and his thinking into ours.

And so I was just so impressed with this concept of sprint. We’ve come across it in product design, never seen it in the brand space before. I experienced it.

It was amazing. Eden’s great. I can’t wait to tuck into some of these topics with him.

Eden, welcome to the show.

So much energy. Thank you. Thank you, Matt.

Great to be here and hi, Jacob. Great to meet you too.

Great. Yeah. Yeah.

Probably too much coffee is the thing. And also usually folks, when we do this, like I am usually calling in in the evening and Jacob is in the early morning just because I’m in the UK and Jacob’s in Australia. But today we’ve swapped it around.

So Jacob’s in the evening and I’m in the morning. So I’ve got even more energy than normal. So I’ll try.

And Jacob’s going to be even more grumpy than me.

We’ll have to put this in half speed, Matt.

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We will.

I know.

Can you imagine? Brilliant. Well, look, enough about us.

Let’s focus back in on you, Eden. I’d love to know a little bit about your background. I know you have a lot of projects that you run, but tell us, you know, how you came to Found Under.

And I know you’ve got a project called Rainbow. I don’t know if you want to talk about that, but just give us a sense of who you are.

I’d like to call myself a designer, you know, after all. I do started from programming in a young age. I don’t have any formal education.

I didn’t go to college or anything like that. So always doing design, always doing code, just not calling it in these names, I guess. So I started out as a designer, became a product designer after my military service.

Started to work in a design studio in Tel Aviv. I had the opportunity to do, to design products from half a decade or almost a decade ago that became nice, like Monday. Designed, yeah, I helped design one of the first versions of it.

And there are some others, startups in that, but that’s like, I think one of the, it’s a great name, I guess. Then I met my wife. Immediately as we met, we started working together.

It was something very natural for us. I was a freelancer, she was a freelancer show. So it was natural because of that, I guess.

And we became a design studio. So we were a full service design studio for a few years. And then we were doing everything, like product design, all types of even programming.

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So I was basically managing two multidisciplinary teams that were doing too many things. So it became really hard for us. I got more and more into business.

There was a startup that we started, this project Rainbow, it was called Relate back then. It was a design and development tool. So I became more and more oriented in business.

And I could apply it back on the studio because on the studio, we were just again, we were just like me and my wife, freelancers calling ourselves studio, doing things. And the more I got into business or strategy, the more I understood that we have to niche down. So I’ve started to read books, read things on the internet.

And I understood that there was like hints here and there. So like, oh yeah, we probably should do that. Oh, we should do it this way.

Why are we doing it this way? So all of these questions started to, and I think that’s a very, if I summarize my career till now, I’d say I wanted to be a designer all the time. I thought I could be a better designer if I would be a better programmer.

Then I thought I would be a better designer if I would learn marketing. Then I understood that I learned business. And I was like, okay, that’s the thing I had to learn to become a better designer.

Something like that. And I’m still going in that, there’s no like, I’m learning forever. I didn’t forget the other parts, but I think that having a business score is like the most important thing that I would be telling anyone from the early in their career.

Easy to judge yourself with that, with these tools.

Fantastic. Can I ask you another quick question before we dive into the sprint specifically. You mentioned that you were involved in all the startups in Tel Aviv.

And something that’s fascinated me over the last few years is the culture in Israel and how it’s known as, there’s a book, isn’t there, called The Startup Nation? I don’t know if anybody’s read that. I can’t remember who it’s by, so I can’t give credit.

Hang on, I can have a quick look. It’s by Dan Sensor and Saul Singer. And I read that and it blew my mind because that book talked about the fact that, there’s this kind of a number of principles that are really driving innovation in Israel.

And they talk about the bottom-up culture, the military. Obviously there’s a heavy religious element, interconnectivity. There’s this kind of element called chutzpah, which is being like, which I’ve probably said it wrong Eden, so forgive me.

But my understanding is like, chutzpah.

Being blunt and brash and direct, isn’t it? Which comes out of there. And all of that is kind of, the book concludes all of that together is kind of driving a lot of innovation and interest.

What would you say, would you agree with that book? Like in terms of the innovation and the startup nation aspects, or is there anything that you saw that you wanted to add to that? What is it that’s causing all of that innovation to take place?

It’s something that can be explained. It’s like Israel, right? But that’s mainly Jewish people, right?

So I think Jewish people, Jews were pushed to the corner throughout history all the time, in many ways, and they had to, they had to educate themselves how to get along in the, we call it the Gola, like being outside of our homeland. It’s like the Gola. So that’s like a very big concept for Jews because we were living in, not in our own land, but in other people’s, so we have to sort of embed somehow.

And I think that created a really strong Jewish culture of solidarity with each other and then, and being scrappy. I think if we translate it to the world of startups directly, so it’s about being scrappy, about, yeah, chutzpah is just one of the things, you know? But chutzpah is like being able to, you know, saying, okay, I have to email, I want to talk with this person.

So someone would say, yeah, I cannot talk to them because they’re like really famous or whatever, but Israelis, they don’t give a shit, really. So they’re just like, you know, let’s email that guy. I did not answer, okay, let’s call his friend.

And then, so we’re like being scrappy in the way we do things. And I think that’s also, if to summarize it, I’d say Israelis are, I think, good in the bottom up in building things that are like in the beginning. But our problem is that we don’t know how to scale, you know, we like scale is like, oh, it’s like organization, order, da.

And then that’s, I think this is how the connection, I think with the US, Israel and the US in terms of business really works in terms of startups. So we like, we build it in Israel, we import it, we export it to the US and then it becomes like, but I do see that recently, in recent years, we are becoming more efficient in scale because you do see like big companies starting in Israel, started in Israel, right? Like, you know, we have all of these ways, Checkpoint, Fiverr, all of the others.

Scrappy doesn’t sound like the right word. It’s like you get done and you’re resourceful. Scrappy sounds a bit like my interpretation is that it’s you’re resourceful and you get done.

Could be, could be, but there’s also, it’s actually, you know, I don’t know if we are, we are lack of resources.

It’s like, it’s like doing the things because you’re, right, in a way.

And I think it’s also connected. Scrappy is a word I also use in the sprint context as well. We’ll talk about it, I know, in a minute.

But there is this part when the sprint is very scrappy in the beginning. It’s like all of the design process that we do always, right? Like that.

So it’s all about that in the beginning. But then there is this other part of the sprint, which I think that’s what creates a good outcome eventually. Because otherwise, you know, we wouldn’t talk about the sprint now because it wouldn’t be successful or…

Let’s get into the sprint. Okay, so before just to tee us up a little bit for that, what I’d love to know, just simply, like, what is a sprint, right, Eden? And what is a brand sprint?

So start with sprint and then start with brand sprint. And then I’d love to sort of dive into that, particularly the origin story. But let’s just start with the definitions.

What is a sprint?

Let’s break the brand sprint, okay? So I will start with the brand, actually. So what’s a brand, as I see it, okay?

So first, there is the meta. There’s the part where we always talk about, which is a brand is what we eventually, it’s the sum of its parts, right? It’s what we eventually, the mark, the audiences can be many audiences.

Feel about your company or product, right? Feel, think, and that’s like many things. Eventually, I love Apple, but there’s so many reasons why I love Apple and I can break it down.

That’s scientific, but I love Apple, right? So that’s about that. That’s the meta part.

And there is the other part of the brand, which I see, which I start to see from doing a lot of sprints is that there is the toolbox part. There is the sprint, there is the brand being something that is tangible, that you can use in your every day. How you use your brand, all of your templates, all of the toolbox, the actual toolbox, the tangible things that you use on your every day to do marketing, to do…

Parts of your identity?

Yeah, the words that you are using, the visuals that you are reusing, the reuse. I think the reuse of your brand is a big part of it. And how the brand is, the way the brand is thought, the way the brand is built and structured in the most…

It’s like the tangible part of it, like the everyday part of it. So there’s the meta and then the direct connection of how do you apply it on our everyday things in the best way, right? And then there’s like, obviously, it’s a good, all of the things we know, like the style guides, the good designers, right?

Eventually all of that. So that’s the brand. The spring is like, you know, running fast, doing things really fast.

But I think it’s not about fast as much as it is about efficiency. So think of it as, we did a lot of branding processes throughout the years, just like yourself. And there is one thing I’ve learned that was like hitting me every time.

I was like, every time I was like falling, every time I was devastated from it. And it’s the momentum. Like losing momentum is something that is really bad, is really bad for any type of process.

I think that’s why the design sprint is created, because we wanted to create products in a very tight environment of startups. So the design sprint for products had to be created. Someone needed to create it.

So it was like the right moment in time that someone sat and wrote this book and created a culture out of it, because we were, I don’t know, I mean, I hope that there’s like the negative part of this culture, right? Of like running fast and all that. But I think in terms of efficiency, if we’re talking about efficiency and that’s how we took it.

So yeah, that’s the sprint. So that’s the momentum. And I think in product design, there is, it’s more, it’s very scientific.

It’s like straightforward. You know, when you talk about it, you talk about user experience, you talk about putting this button there, they will not see it, putting this button here, they will see it. It’s mathematics in that essence.

And in brand, it’s also scientific. It’s also mathematics, but people don’t get it. It’s emotional, it’s emotional, emotions come in the way.

So I think it’s even more important to do such things in a sprint, because all of this tight decision making, okay? And happening in a really short amount of time is it’s like you’re doing a favor. You know, I still speak with like founders, we talk with them, like we ran a sprint for them two years ago, and they’re like, wow, event, you know, after two years, we’re like, we ran a sprint with another agency because we were like rowing and we, you know, I lose control of who’s doing it and who da da da.

And it took like a few months and I’m so sorry, we did not talk to you even again. And I was like, wow, that’s a benchmark. That’s a good thing.

The more sprint I run, the more I think, fuck, everything should be like that.

Well, let me ask you a question. When did you first come across the concept of sprint? Because I came across it some years ago with this book by Jacob Knapp called Sprint.

And I think he’s from Google Ventures. Yeah, Jacob’s got it as well. And it’s just such a, he basically says like, in five days, you can solve big problems and test, it’s a whole design thinking thing, just as you say, compressed into five days.

Is that where you found it or did you find it somewhere else? And how did you evolve that into the brand sprint that you talk about?

So I knew about the design sprint and I was involved in some design sprints for products, okay? So I, but I was trapped in this world of products, okay? It was actually my wife before, a little bit before the COVID kicked.

So we had this problem, right? Again, we were running all of these different projects. It really, it was really hard for us to anticipate like revenue, many things, right?

All of the business aspects. And I was running these other startup at the time. Then COVID kicked and she was saying, look, we cannot do it anymore.

Like we cannot do all of these projects anymore. And I have an idea and I don’t know, you do whatever you like with it. I heard that you have, you talk about sprint, sprint.

I’ve heard you talking about that kind of things. So I was thinking the best brand project I did was the ones that unintentionally it happened fast. In like one week or so, I was just creating it.

I had a hypothesis. I was working with a good client. They were committing to it, to a direction.

I was just doing it. I owned it and it’s just done. And I was like, okay, show them to me.

And I’m actually seeing big companies in there, big companies in that list. And like, oh my God, did you do that in like that amount of time? She’s like, yes, and look at them.

There’s like, the sign is on NASDAQ. So I’m like, okay, cool. There’s something in it.

Maybe we can do something that is very, we can start a process. We can start creating this productized service and market it like that. And we started doing it.

So they were like, we ran the first three sprints for free. Like really for free, because we were like, okay, it’s a new product. We’re not sure what is going on.

It’s like the COVID and everything. Let’s invite two or three companies just to run it for them. Let’s do it for like a month or so.

So we did it and it was hard. There were a lot of questions came up. We almost, there was even a new project coming in and they wanted so many things.

And I was like, no, we’re doing just this brand sprint. And my wife told me, Inbal told me, maybe we should do it for them. It’s not this type of world.

And I was like, no, we’re no longer thinking what’s good for them. We first think what’s good for us. First, even though it’s like counterintuitive, we first think what’s good for us.

So for us, it’s good to run these sprints to continue building this productized service. And it was like that for many opportunities that came. We were like, okay, should we do it or not?

It’s not a sprint. They did not come for a sprint. They just, they want brand and so many other things.

So we were like, no, we’re doing just this visual identity part. Like we’re creating your strategy, your brand story really fast and creating your visual identity. And for some, it went, it was great.

It was like, it was a match. They wanted it. For some, it was like, okay, no, we didn’t know anything about it.

And we were not yet even selling it right, I guess, because we didn’t know how to run it properly. But we committed to it. I understood that I need to commit to something.

That was like a business realization at that time. So I committed to it, even though it was hard. So we ran 10 sprints, we ran 20 sprints, started to increase the price a little bit.

And today I can say that, you know, for the last 20 sprints, which is like a year and a half, we did not change the price. It’s the price that we, you know, we got into some price and we said, okay, that’s great. They can pay that.

It will be profitable. We can get good talent to get the project done for them. And so all of that became like the stars got aligned, like a year ago.

And since then we ran like seven or eight sprints that, I guess there was also this moment I’m continuing to talk, but there was this moment where-

Keep going, keep going, it’s interesting.

There was this moment where we ran a lot of sprints. Okay, we ran like a lot of sprints, like time one after the other, one after the other, one after the other. And it was great.

But we actually say that every sprint, we lose something from our soul. Because it’s hard. It’s hard.

And it’s also related to maybe to the fact that it works really well in Israel. Because there is the mentality of, you know, having it quick, having it done quick, high quality, wanting everything. I think the offering of the sprint is quick and fancy.

So we’re like this premium agency that you’re seeking, like we can do premium things, we can do high end design. But at the same time, we are quick. That’s like the quick and fancy.

It’s the two things you cannot ever get together. And that’s the niche, right? That’s like the thing that’s not exist, that maybe can be a good match.

So I am actually, I’m very happy with the sprint because I didn’t want to build a productized service. I want to build a product company. Then I, you know, I productized a service that I was like, okay, I don’t want to even do that.

But I think that today I think of it as really as a product, really, really as a product after a long time. It’s really structured. You know, if you will email me that you want the sprint, there is a template to anything.

There’s like a way, there are like rules that have written in blood for everything almost from the creative part that and you know, how do we facilitation of like how we get you to decide on things. How do we handle problems that happens on the way. It’s written.

There’s like a playbook with like maybe a hundred pages that I did not yet release. And you know, that’s like just I just put my things on it every time I like I have some idea, but eventually maybe we will release it, right? That should be something interesting.

You should, Eden, you should. And send it to me and Jacob first. We’d love to see it.

Just a quick thing, there’s so much in that, like my mind is slightly blown, right? So let me just pick a few things apart.

One of the things that I thought was interesting, so I’ve run sprints myself, brand sprints on the concept of Jake Knapp, and I did it within a wider consultancy piece for a client. And so I assembled this, they needed something really quick, like the whole brand identity, and they were quite almost unreasonable, like we need it for in two months’ time. I was like, wow, that’s crazy.

And they’re like, no, we definitely need it. You’re the consultant on the project. And I’m like, okay, I can make this happen, but I don’t know if you can make this happen.

Like, it’s not often the creatives that are the challenge actually. So anyway, so I said, fine. So I said, this is how we’re gonna do it.

We’re gonna run a sprint. So this was maybe three years ago. So I got a copywriter, a designer and there was myself, we had a semiotics expert, that’s somebody who can assess cultural, because this is a global brand, so it was like cultural nuances and advise us.

And I set the whole, I did it in a week and I set up checkpoints with various steering groups within the company. And then we had times when the creative team were just going crazy on it. And like you said, although everybody I got in was world-class and really fantastic, I nearly killed them with it, right?

They said the bit of their soul just died because particularly designers, they like to craft things and think about it and shape it. They did it and we got out, we came out with an amazing brand identity that actually ticked all the boxes and everyone was happy, but they needed like a week to rest afterwards because it was just like so intense. So I have been on that side, but I’ve also been on the side where you and your team were running a sprint and I was part of the client side, if you like, working on that project.

And I found it from the client side, because I’m used to that, as you say, the mindset, like I thought it was brilliant, because what it means is in one to two weeks, you have this burst of focused energy on the new positioning from a strategic perspective, the brand assets, all the teams getting together, bouncing ideas together with the creative team, with your team, Eden, and you’re making decisions fast to get to a prototype, to get to something that you can get out to market. And I just think like that’s, as you say, Jacob, efficiency, resourcefulness, like how brilliant is that? So I just think that that’s just fantastic.

And then just one other thing, when you’re on the other side, the more traditional, say waterfall side of things where, you know, there’s long-winded processes, where the inefficiencies come in, in my experience, and I’ve done hundreds like you guys have, when it’s actually not usually in the creative teams, on the creative team side, it’s usually on the client side, indecision, people going on holidays, diaries not matching up, holidays within the company, all of that. And so the sprint kills all of that, because it forces everybody to get together and make decisions. So I just think it’s super smart.

And when I came across you doing this, amazing. So I’ve got a question though. So you said it kills a little bit of your soul.

So how do you set the studio up? Like, because I know when we were doing it some years ago, you were like, and I contacted you since to do projects, and you were like, no, we’re booked up back to back to back on sprints. So do you give a little space to your team in between now?

How do you sort of plan it?

At one point in time, we were running a lot of sprints. Okay, so we were doing one after the other, having like just finishing one next week, there’s like the first meeting of the next one. So there was like just a few days in between, because, and also it was related to the price, right?

It was related to us pricing it a bit lower than we do now, I guess. So at one point we were like, okay, we either run more sprint, like hire more people, right? Or we do less sprints for only the companies who really need that, take more money from them, having more space between the sprints.

So it was really, you know, it was so obvious when you put it like that in the table, it’s so obvious that you have to go to this other side. So that’s what we did. So we were saying at the beginning of 2023 was a whole we build, whole we build here for like the economy worldwide.

And still we were saying, okay, we’re gonna do just seven or 10, seven to 10 sprint throughout the whole year. And we did, we ran seven sprints. So we had like one month or even two.

At one point we had like two months between sprints, okay? So it was actually better because I could make, I could hire people at that time I could find. So at one point in time, we were like, we could hire great talents.

You know, I could say, oh, I have so much time. Let’s hire this, let’s find a 2D animator. Let’s find a new 2D illustrator, whatever, all of that.

Which, when we were doing it between, when we were running a lot of sprints, it was impossible, right? So having a lot of space between sprints, it’s good for us, for the team who runs it. There is like the core team, there is a senior brand designer and sort of mid junior designer.

And for them, it’s also exhausting, right? If it’s exhausting for us, making the decision, facilitating politics, da da da da. For them, it’s even more because there is a lot of uncertainty.

Look, I designed the thing that I… The thing I designed now, am I going to put it in the trash or is it going to be all of the things that the hands-on designer is thinking of? So for them, it’s also exhausting.

So for us, for the core team, we were like, okay, let’s have like just big space in between.

I bet they love it. I bet they love it because you can get that burst of energy and then some downside, really cool. Well, let me ask you another question then.

Tell us about where you’ve got to then in the sprint. I know you run, is it a 10-day sprints you tend to run now? What are the components of that?

And just walk our listeners through like how, what to expect in such a sprint?

There are two things, right? There is like what we do every day, how we run it every day, and there is the deliverables, like what do you get eventually, okay? And what you come with.

So at the beginning, like the early end point, let’s say, so the strategy meeting, the three hours brain sprint, right? Like as Jake Knapp wrote in this article, beautiful article that you should have the link somewhere, I guess.

We put it on the screen, it’s great.

That’s like the first part. We meet for three hours with the team and we learn as much as possible from them with all of these beautiful exercises from Google, from, you know, what’s the golden circle? I forgot his name, this guy.

Oh, Simon Sinek, yeah.

Yeah, Simon. So we do all of that and we, you know, we take as much information as we can. We have a lot of sticky notes.

Then we bring all of these sticky notes home and we are starting to put it like really to say, okay, they said this, but they mean this. So we started to put like the actual words because during the meeting, we don’t really, we’re not really, you know, tied with like the words that people are saying. It’s okay, you can say whatever, you can say different things and you can mean the same thing if you like, that’s okay.

But then in the, when I’m with myself at home after the meeting, I just fix that. And I have like a map, like a real map of the why, what, how, and there are some exercises that I do, that I do myself, you know, there’s this online-ness statement. So it’s like including why, what, when, all of these, yeah, in one sentence.

Not something that you’re gonna use, but it’s like a formula that if you’re using, that you can say, oh, okay, we’re on this, that makes sense, right? Even though it’s like a long sentence, no one will ever say. And from that, we were like, okay, great, I can come up with a story from that.

I can come up with a story. And at that time, we already have tone of voice, like we know how we want to be sound like. So there’s no visual.

Only in day one or two, there is visual. So there is only text in day zero. So yeah, I write down the brand story that includes everything, even the tone of voice.

And it’s really short, right? And then we come to the team with that and we’re like, okay, look, we’re gonna read it to you. Most of the time, they’re like in love with it, you know, mostly because, in love with it, right, it’s a byproduct of things, but they love it because they feel connected to it, because there’s nothing in it that they did not say.

There’s only things to say. I even put things that they’re not expecting to say, like the culture of the founders is part of the brand story. That should be interpreted into something, you know, so I remember that person say there was a blockchain product, like technical, and they were saying, ta-da-da, so we can have fun and buy a yacht.

And they were saying it, and I was like, ooh, that sounds cool. That’s okay, that sounds like chutzpah.

Yeah, correct, to the point.

And I was like, and I put it in the brand story at the end, because it was a friendly brand. It was, there was no, so I put it in there. And, you know, they said it, there was nothing.

So that’s like a benchmark to them. I put all of these things that they said, and it makes- Yeah, there was a lot of sense in it eventually because of it, I guess.

And from that, we start to translate it. There’s everything in it, right? There’s like the what, there’s the, like what we design, how we gonna design it.

Like, also they bring their content. They write their content for the website, for the homepage. That’s, you know, the name of the company, the content for the homepage.

Like we do not design any other thing. That’s the only thing we design. And then from that, we make a lot of other deliverables.

But in terms of, you know, because if you think of it, we’re doing two things. We’re creating the brand, and we are testing the brand on top of a marketing deliverable, right? So there is like the brand and the brand application at the same time.

So that’s like a dance, right? So we like to design only one thing so we can test it. So the homepage, right, which is like your most significant marketing thing is there, because I think there is a lot of content in it.

There is like a storytelling in it, right? There is timeline, it’s a website. So that’s the excuse for us to design, to create the brand.

So we need to have the content ready from the client, but then we change it. For us, the content is like the what, right? This is what you want to show.

You want features, benefits, da da da. That’s the what, okay? And this can be designed really bad or this can be the same content, same word, same can be designed really good, or we can override the copy a bit to make it match.

So that’s what we do, I guess, from the first day to day number seven or eight. We just design, we design. So the sprint is for us, right?

In terms of like running fast and for the client in terms of making decisions. So there’s a meeting every day with the client. There is one champion, right?

That’s what you’ve been talking about in terms of the decision maker. There is one decision maker. The sprint is built so the last decision maker is first.

Is actually the person that we engage with the most. So if you will start a company and you’re the founder and you are like 10 people, and you will tell me like, okay, you will be talking to this marketing person in the company. So I would be like, great, but you will not have any decision making abilities.

You should know that. So if you hand off to them, to the marketing persona or to the other brand persona, that’s theirs. You’re not gonna be making decisions.

Sometimes it’s great because the founder is not, it’s built like that so it’s on the table, right? It’s on the table from the first place, from the first meeting. And obviously there’s no, you know, in the vision camp branding process, you were jumping in the meeting, right?

So it was always actually Sunny, but they’re like the same person. They were like jumping together to the meeting. They were like, if there was some conflict, they were resolving it between themselves.

So that’s how-

Oh yeah, I just let them make the decisions, particularly on the visual stuff. I’m more of the strategy guy. So I was more interested in that, but yeah, you have to have somebody, don’t you, in the room who ultimately is going to make the decision because if there’s three people, they all disagree.

You know, I think actually in that sprint, you know, Sunny’s the creative director at Motto. And so we were like, look, Sunny, you just take point. But Ashley’s always got something to say as well.

So, but yeah, but it worked really, really well, I think. And it does. So we’ve got up to day eight anyway.

So you’ve got what, like some prototypes, you refined, you’ve got the strategy in place. You’ve got now the design in, you’ve got your asset. What then happens over the last few days?

So as I said, the first part is a bit scrappy, although it can be interpreted in a negative way, which is good.

Positive scrappiness.

Positive scrappiness, I guess.

So it is like, it’s messy. The first part is messy, right? We build things, we design things.

We’re like, fuck, fuck this shit. We throw it into the archive. Again, excuse my French here.

We throw it to the archive, we like it, we don’t like it. We have all of these feelings, and then we commit in day number five. It’s like Thursday, we have a weekend, and then the weekend is good because there’s the short amount of time for everyone to think about it.

So then when we get to Sunday, we work on Sunday in Israel till Thursday. So on Sunday, I get to see the design that we created for five days in a row and didn’t have time to think of. And I’m like, oh, okay, okay, okay.

We like zoom out, we see everything, and we’re like, okay, that’s the good part of the brand. This is where it becomes inconsistent. So that’s where we start to put things in order.

And in day seven or eight, we take everyone out of Figma, because up until that moment, everyone, we work together, we iterate together, we comment. There’s like a lot of asynchronous part of the process. So in day seven or eight, we take everyone out of Figma and we make a presentation.

So that’s the opportunity to see, the first opportunity to actually see the whole, like how the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. So yeah, because we are working on this homepage, right? So, but you want to see how your brand applies in many other places.

You want to see how it is applied on billboards, on social media posts, stories, like your first campaign, how your first campaign is gonna be visualized, right? There’s a lot of that. You know, we make mockups.

So we really focused on the presentation creation thing. That’s like, you know, the last thing. So when we make that, you know, we meet for the presentation, everyone get to see it, get to really judge it eventually.

And then we have another night, there’s like day nine, day 10, which we call purify, right? Because there are things that maybe we did not decide yet. There are things that the team decided not to decide.

You know, things like, the most significant things is colors, by the way. Colors is the most problematic thing ever, right? Because it’s really, so we sometimes say, okay, because we respect colors, we will design your brand.

We will get your brand to really, really high fidelity with the colors that we think that is great, if you are confused with that. And then you are able to see that on the, and then if you want to change it, great. You know, the color is something that you’re easy to change, right?

So we get to see, but that’s just one thing. There can be so many other aspects. There can be, okay, we like the logo, but then we saw it in that context and we feel that it should be like that and that, or like the label of the…

There’s so many things, but I guess, yeah, color is a very significant thing, you know? The most significant emotional rally of the sprint is like colors, you know? People have opinions on colors, right?

Because we see colors, but we do not see anything. With his spot on color.

Yeah, we looked at that, didn’t we? Yeah, you’re absolutely right. That was a massive part of it.

And I remember that part where, you know, we had lots of different colors, like we had like, I think at the time, just off the top of my head, I remember there were like some lot of like army-based colors, because we were talking about like, it’s a bit of a camp, we’re outside, it’s like in the earth, there’s trees and things like that. And then I think in the end, we, you know, you did share with us lots of alternate colors. And in the end, we picked a very vibrant blue, which was like the sun, you know, the sky at night, just at dusk.

And we kind of went with that because it just popped, it just looked great. But I remember there was a whole kind of area around color. And you’re right, it makes such a difference.

To make that decision almost later on, or at least to allow that decision to be made later on in the sprint, interesting. Yeah.

It was called the Vision Camp, right? So it is called Vision Camp. So there’s always like, what are we more?

Are we more the camp or the vision, right? So we started with the camp. And then it became, blue came from the vision, right?

And wow, wow. Yeah, totally. And it’s the process, right?

It’s everything that we did that we’re like, okay, it’s more about the vision. So the blue have to come from that too, right?

Oh yeah.

So then you refine it, you put that final debt together, and then you hand it back to the client, right? So you give them all the assets, all the things that they need, and then you say thank you very much, goodbye.

Something like that, okay? We resign more slowly, okay? So as we said, it’s like quick and fancy, right?

But even if we do it in 13 days or 14 days, it’s still quick, right? It’s still like considered quick. The fancy is more important than the quick when it comes to debt changes of time.

So the last year, we did not finish a sprint in 10 days. It’s always happening day 11, day 12, 13, something like that. But we don’t like to just, okay, 10 days, get your brand and then we’re off, right?

So we are there to hand off. We are there to hand off. So we do not design more things most of the times.

If we decided we wanna design something for you because we want, we always do it. But it’s more about, we are committed, committed, committed to the handoff, okay? So every asset we designed in the homepage, if it’s going to be animated, we animate it, we animate it.

So there’s like what’s happened next. So we will not allow good design to be animated by someone else, right? Because we’re gonna present it eventually.

So every asset that we started to create, we finish it. And then sometimes it takes a little bit more time, but after day 10, there’s no longer the pressure of making decisions. The brand is in place.

So we’re just playing your designers for another few days. So, and that’s actually great because you get to see how your brand is sort of like getting even more cohesive. But in day 12, 13, we resigned.

We’re like, okay, we created everything. You have your toolbox, there’s your Figma file, which by the way, the Figma file is a good resource. It’s open source, right?

It’s the same structure as we did for VisionCamp and other companies, it’s the same. It’s always the same. And I just refine it.

I put the exercises in there. I put the, you know, if there is like, if we design stories and posts, I put empty posts and stories there in the template. So we know that we should design it.

So, okay, real quick questions then, quick fire questions now, right? What are the top three things you’ve learned from running hundreds of these sprints? Could be a good thing, could be a bad thing, could be mistakes, could be things that you like.

Top three things, top three tips.

Okay, so, facilitation, you know, it was obvious for me before we ran the brand sprints, that it is an emotional process, but I didn’t know yet how scientific this process is. You know, so we see it as a very scientific process. Clients do not get to see it.

How do we get them to see it, right? So that’s facilitation. That’s facilitation.

And that’s why I can give one example from that, you know, logo design, okay? We do AZ testing. So we literally create as many logos as possible, that some are really bad, but we just go for quantity.

It’s AZ testing. So we do 30 or 40 logos that can be, just to bring the conversation to the table. And then, you know, we remove one.

We remove logos that are bad, even that we think, you know, we just do. So we think with the client, we remove the ones that are bad and we left with like three or four. And we’re like, okay, great.

Let’s do AB testing to these four. Let’s do just variation to these four. So knowing something like that is like, early in the career, I wouldn’t do things like that.

I would just like, here’s your four logos, choose one, right? Or something like that. But because it’s very scrappy, and the client is aware of them being in a sprint, being aware of it being messy, right?

They’re in Figma with us. So because of that, that gives us the legitimacy to show them things that are like under the…

Yeah, show them things that are messy. So yeah, I think facilitation, facilitation is the one thing that I’ve learned, and it’s for me how to handle politics. It’s like, because I’ve seen how we can get really angry clients, you know, angry and emotional client about one, and they’re like, you know, very emotional about one thing, and we can get them to make a very scientific decision, something that is really rational, right?

So facilitation is something that I didn’t, I wasn’t aware of before that.

A good facilitation is necessary. What are your next two tips?

Rest, rest, rest. Design is really, you know, our brain is obviously a muscle, and when we design, we make decisions. We make a lot of decisions.

We make a lot of micro decisions that we don’t even talk about. There are things that no one talks about, that we do while we are there, hands on, even as creative directors and as designers. So I think that having good rest between projects is also a key, and I know it, because I suffered from it.

So that’s the second thing, I guess. That’s one of the reasons why we are in Thailand right now, in a way, so we can continue having our everyday and do things, because there is, no one tells me not to do my things there, but it’s just difficult. It’s just difficult.

It’s intense in terms of mind processing, news, a lot of information. So yeah, meditation between projects, wow. There’s like, it’s something.

I cannot think of a third thing, you know, like I can, I don’t know.

Two’s good, two’s good, top two tips. Okay, well, look, final, final two questions. What do you think the future looks like for your sprints?

Do you think that you’ll develop them further? Do you think you’re happy with where they are? And the final thing is, you know, how do people get in touch with you and find out more about these sprints that you’ve been doing?

Future, so I think for me, I still want to build a product company, you know, that’s like my thing. So we still, we build, there are products that we are building internally in Anders. So one day maybe it will become something.

So for me, it’s okay that in a few years, I will not run sprints, for me, for me, it’s okay. I enjoy doing it, I like it. I think that even if we will not do it, we will teach how to do it or we will be involved in some aspects of information related to branding.

But if we’re talking specifically about the brand sprint game, so I think that I’d be happy to continue it as is. It’s like only now we got into making it really efficient as is, we ran more than 60 up until now, high success rates, I guess like I can say 97% success.

Eden, do you have a video or any resource online where people can see some of your sprints like behind the scenes?

Sure, yeah, there is obviously the showcases on our website, on our portfolio. So every showcase we have on the website is a brand sprint that we ran. And there are things in social media that are more, you know, under our everyday things that we just post.

You know, there are videos of animation, motion work that we did in there.

I did have a look at your site before, but it didn’t really show the, unless I mistook it, but didn’t show the process or like a workshop or the, you know, the scrappy part. Like it was more often like more of the final pieces. So I’m just curious.

Ah, like a work in progress. You mean to see work in progress or things?

Yeah, like if you get input from the client and like the scrappy information and the messaging and the how and the why and like that thinking and how that translated to your work, your design work.

So in every showcase I do in the recent projects, we do put the brand story, you know, that’s part of the showcase, it’s in words. But I get what you mean. I think it would be great if some companies would allow me to have their files public so they can see what’s in the archive, on the archive to see how…

And it’s really easy to see on the archive like how the brand evolved, right? You see, oh, they chose that, but they could choose that. Why didn’t they?

Oh, maybe… So that’s like, I think it’s really interesting for designers to see our archive page.

I would love to see that. That’s the side I’d love to see, behind the scenes.

Eden, you heard it here first, get it out there, do some videos with us, and that would be great to see. But on the whole, yeah, amazing. So just remind everybody of the website, though.

Where would you direct everybody?

Sure.

So we are under dot design. This is like our website. You can find me Eden Videl at gmail.com or Eden at we are under, or ever.

I talk with a lot of people. We do only, we run seven a year, okay? So for me, in terms of like the funnel, right?

So I get to talk with so many people knowing that we will not run sprints for them. So don’t hesitate to reach out if you have specific questions about, you know, I’m telling to your audience, right? About any brand related or sprint related, even if you want to run a sprint, that you want to learn how to do it, don’t hesitate.

We put all our information there. It’s like open source. Brilliant.

Well, Eden, listen, I think we’re coming to the end of our time. I just want to thank you so much for jumping on the podcast and for explaining all of those things. It’s been really enlightening and really exciting, you know, thrilling to speak to you and to gain from your experience.

So thanks so much. We really appreciate it. Jacob, any final thoughts from you?

Thank you so much, Eden. What are the websites people can find you at?

So there’s the edenvidal.com, which is, you know, just a text with links to the… And there’s the weareunder.design, which is the company website. And yeah, thank you.

It was really pleasure. It’s actually, yeah, it was, and it turned out really well.

Yeah, thank you for making it happen.

I know it’s a lot of travel issues and everything. So thank you.

Thank you.

All right, take care. Take care, Eden. Thank you.

Good night, good morning. Take care.

Take care, goodbye.

Goodbye.

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