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[Podcast] How to Measure Brand & Uncover Insights with Dan White

[Podcast] How to Measure Brand & Uncover Insights with Dan White

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Dan White is a branding consultant and author of “The Smart Branding Book” and has over 30 years of experience in marketing and branding.

In this episode, we discuss the latest thinking and methods for brand building including the rarely discussed area of uncovering insights and measuring brand, with successful examples.

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We highlight how insights and measurement can be used together to create successful branding campaigns, and discuss how to adjust and improve branding strategies over time.

Lastly, we touch on emerging trends in branding and how branding may evolve in the future.

On a related note, see our article on how to measure brand.

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Show Transcript (Auto Generated)

Hello, and welcome to JUST Branding, the only podcast dedicated to helping designers and entrepreneurs grow brands. Here are your hosts, Jacob Cass and Matt Davies.

Hello, and welcome to JUST Branding. Today, we have Dan White with us, who’s a trainer and consultant, who’s been in the marketing and branding sector for over 30 years. He’s the author of the SPART Marketing Book and has just released a new book, The Smart Branding Book, which presents the latest thinking and methods for brand building.

Even Byron Sharp declared the book better than most university brand management books. I’ve got the book here, and I must say it’s incredibly concise. As you can see, it’s a small little package, but there’s a ton of stuff inside.

For anyone watching the video, there’s lovely little illustrations too. It’s kind of like a Marty Neumeyer book in a way, like it’s very to the point, but this covers a much wider range of branding topics versus like Marty’s books, which are very focused on one area. But the book inside, Dan’s career has included a decade as a marketing analyst, another as a brand and comms consultant, and a third as a chief marketing officer.

So needless to say, he’s got a wealth of practical experience and we’re stoked to have him on the show. We’re going to deep dive into a rarely discussed area of branding, and that’s on uncovering insights and measuring brand. It’s probably the toughest part of any brand strategy job.

So I’m really interested to talk to Dan about this. So welcome to the show, Dan.

Thanks very much. Thanks for inviting me.

Welcome, Dan. It’s going to be great. I can’t wait to get into this.

So it’s an area where I feel like a lot of us sort of blunder around in. And I think you’ll be able to add some huge value. So looking forward to tucking into this with you.

Well, my career does span market research, insights and marketing. So I feel I have a foot in both camps. I hope I can help out.

Awesome. Well, maybe we’ll just start off with your story in a concise format, like how you got into marketing and brand and perhaps even like how you came to write into books on the subject.

Well, I kind of fell into it. When I left university, I had no idea what I wanted to do. I know I wanted to live with my fiancee at the time, who’s now my wife.

Congratulations.

Well, it was 30 something years ago, so, but related congratulations. Very much accepted. Yeah, so I just I followed her to where she needed to be to do her postgraduate teacher training.

So I ended up flicking any jobs in the region. In fact, I applied for, I try to remember what they were. They were computer programmer, accountant, graphic designer, and market research executive.

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So a little bit quite different, but I went for the market research job because it just sounded much more interesting to me. It sounded fascinating. I was right.

It was and is.

So at what point did you write the marketing book? How far into your career were you when that happened?

30 years out of 34. But I kind of spent the first 30 years kind of, well, not consciously researching it, but it turns out I was researching for the books that I’m now writing. I doodle.

So the diagrams in the book, the cartoons, etc. they’re mine. They’re not brilliant, but it’s the only style I can write.

But I’ve always done doodles and scribbles and drawn frameworks and visualizations and made note of anecdotes, you know, to help me remember things, anything I learned about anything. And I ended up with, I think it was 50, it was close to 50 books. In fact, I still did it today.

This is my latest one. This is my current book. It’s got some doodles.

They’re very professional doodles. You don’t want to see mine.

They’re not. No, no. I mean, they start off looking, you know, rubbish like this.

You know, they start off looking like that or not much. And then I work them up. But anyway, I had a whole pile of them.

And I thought, you know, I came to a point in my career where I had some time on my hands. You can guess what that means. And I thought, you know, this is the time to dig out those doodles and make sense of them and, you know, write the narrative around them and turn them into these books.

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And the first one did really well. And it inspired me to basically go through everything else to complete the project.

And how did you, so it’s like the smart is kind of like a series where we had another guest, Kevin Duncan, who’s part of the of that series. So how did you, you know, land a deal with that kind of, I guess?

Well, Kevin, actually, it was Kevin that inspired me. So I think the first one of his I saw was The Diagrams Book, which is, I think, might have been the first in the whole series. He kind of co-created, invented the idea behind the series with lid publishing.

So, you know, the format, the size, the idea of keeping it short, concise. It’s actually called Concise Advice. That’s the series’ actual name.

And, yeah, and doing, making it very visual and fun and accessible, unlike most business books, which tend to be quite word heavy and long. And I think…

And dull.

I’m on board with that, Dan.

Let’s be honest. I know, really.

I can’t, I find them hard to read. There’s very few I’ve read. You know, I’ve read How Brands Grow, one and two, and a few others.

Or I haven’t even, you know, I find it hard. I’m a very visual person and I lose attention quickly. Whereas cartoons, diagrams, they kind of keep it lively for me.

And it turns out I’m not the only one. You know, there’s a lot of people who appreciate the visual.

Let’s dive into it. So how, let’s start with marketing and branding. So these are some discussions that go on, like marketing versus branding, and what’s the difference and all that.

And seeing that you’ve written a book on each, like how would you describe marketing versus brand and how do they co-exist together?

Well, I think of marketing as a much wider discipline. You know, I think of marketing in its broadest sense of it’s about how a company creates and promotes and delivers, in fact, you know, the products and services that allow them to achieve their commercial objectives. You know, you create value through your marketing efforts, and that includes, you know, the innovation, product innovation and service innovation, as well as things like advertising and sponsorship and the rest of it.

So for me, marketing is a company does marketing to be successful. A marketer will oversee that process, but everyone has to get involved in those things I just described. So that, you know, on the one hand, I think marketers have that kind of responsibility, to be customer centric and think about what will create value through the through customers wanting services and prepared to pay for the services.

So for me, I think of that broad and hence the Smart Marketing Book covers everything. The Smart Marketing Book.

That’s the marketing side. And then how would you separate them? I know they’re not meant to be separated, but you know, just for the sake of the conversation.

Well, I think what branding is, it’s a real deep dive into one important aspect of marketing, which is all about shaping, you know, creating and shaping perceptions around a brand. So that it’s building those hopefully long lasting memories around a brand that mean it will be more successful in the long term. So when people, when I think about branding, I’m talking about brand building.

I’m talking about powerful, memorable experiences around a brand that mean that it’s a kind of a memorable, compelling choice into the future, which is what actually supports company profits long term.

It’s really tough, though, isn’t it? Definitions like that. Because what I find, I don’t know if you find this, is when I work with a lot of companies, you get the marketing silo, right, the marketing engine.

And often, I find, and I don’t know what your experience is on this, but I find in a lot of businesses that I work with tend to look to that function, if you like, they’ll call it a function, to generate leads, right? And then the sales function, or will, and sometimes they’re together, their business development, right? Then the sales function will take those leads that are hopefully warm and go and try and eventually go through the sales process and try and land a deal.

That’s a very broad way of looking at it, but that’s how I sort of see it. So it’s interesting, because I think Jacob and I, I don’t know what your thoughts are, Jacob, but I would see almost like the other way around. So in my head, I’m like, brand is like everything.

It’s like innovation. It’s like trying to make sure that we’re relevant. It’s trying to make sure that we’re sticking everybody together, like everyone owns the brand.

And then marketing is a part of that to try and kind of make sure that we get it out in front of the right people.

But I think the word marketing these days is much more often referred to as the kind of activation side, isn’t it? It’s converting those opportunities and the activity that you do very close to the moment of sale to trigger the sale, to remind people of the brand. Yeah, but I think I personally think of that as just another string to marketing, which is the activation side, you know.

So Dan, that’s super interesting. I think what would be great is if let’s segue into insights, right, which cover off, I guess, all marketing and branding in that sense. First of all, let’s do definitions on insights, right?

What is an insight? Because I know there’s some thinking around that that might be worth getting your view on in terms of how you see an insight as opposed to just data, I suppose. So, you know, walk us through that.

Yeah, I mean, there is a particular use of insight, which I like because it kind of helps remind us why we’re doing things like research, you know, what it’s all about. And it’s… But the way I think about it is, when you’re doing research, one of the most useful things you can come up with is a kind of an original truth about…

Just about, often about, consumers’ lives, yeah, that really resonate with people. And if you find one of those things that’s connected to what your brand does, you’ve got something potentially very rich that can inspire your marketing and inform you. So I think just a good start with any kind of…

A good place to start for any organization that wants to be consumer-centric is to just really immerse themselves in the consumer’s world and to find out about them, listen to them. And there are lots of different methodologies you can use for that. And try and find little nuggets and little insights, little things about their lives that you could then use as the basis for innovation and advertising.

So you’re truly focused on the customer here, would you say insights are found elsewhere?

Yeah, I think that is the main role of the insights functions and market research functions. It is to help the company to be consumer-centric, the voice of the consumer. I think that’s the primary responsibility of insights.

And the best way to do that is to understand your consumers inside out and to understand what they’re doing inside out and to get reactions from them on things you’re either doing or thinking of doing. That’s at the heart of good research is those things.

I think this is something that we strategists struggle with. It’s a very difficult market research. So I’m glad we’re discussing that.

Tell me what’s difficult? What makes it difficult?

Yeah, let’s dive into that. So what do you see some challenges around market research and gathering data and analyzing it and uncovering these truths?

Well, I think, I mean, it’s a bit, it’s hit and miss, especially when you’re talking about uncovering truth. You know, I think of it as exploratory research. It’s research meant to inspire and inform the process of brand building and advertising.

And it’s hit and miss. I mean, a lot of brands don’t really come up with powerful insights. A lot of brands aren’t based on a fundamental human truth or a big idea or whatever.

A lot of people say Coke doesn’t really have one. You know, it’s been lots of things at different times. It’s, you know, about happiness, but it’s quite a nebulous idea.

And well, some brands have found one and have really leveraged it well and made a lot out of it. And it’s helped improve their communications. But yeah, I think that’s the fundamental.

How do you know you’ve found one?

I think there are… It’s not actually in my current book. It’s going to be in the next book, which is all about…

It’s the deep dive into advertising. You can probably guess what the name is, given the names of the previous ones. But it’s coming out next year.

But yeah, there are things you can look for to know whether you’ve got one. And, you know, there are things like, is it new? Or is it something the consumer’s heard before, been done before, it’s been leveraged before?

So it’s kind of a bit new. It’s got to resonate with them. You know, they’ve got to identify with it, go, oh, yeah, yeah, that’s true, isn’t it?

That’s the kind of reaction you want. Literally that kind of, oh, yeah, yeah. With a smile on their face, ideally.

You’ve got to sort of think about whether it’s something that’s relevant right now because of some trend, some current, something’s quite hyped up at the moment, something that are fat is what I’m saying, or is it something that’s more of a fundamental truth that’s going to be as relevant today as it is in five years’ time and 10 years’ time? We’re actually literally working on a checklist like that of about six different things, including those. So there are ways you can test these insights to see if they’re powerful or not.

Or, of course, you can literally use research to compare them. You can present different insights to consumers and ask them how strongly they feel about them. That’s actually not that complex.

That works quite well.

That’s really cool. I like that idea. It seems to me, though, can I just sort of set something out and see what you make of this?

Tell me if I’m off, but this is how I sort of see it. So you’ve got research, haven’t you? So it’s like, we’re going to make some decisions.

We’re going to move the business in a new direction, and we’re going to test how we’re doing in relation to our competitors. So we’ll do some research. And then it seems to me there’s some choices that businesses need to make.

One is we could go down the qualitative route, which is like, we’ll talk to customers or hold steering groups, hold focus groups, share ideas, or just have discussions or go sit in their house a little bit and see what they’re up to. Or, that sounds really weird, but you know what I mean, with that permission, of course, not just go sit in the house.

There’s a word for it, it’s called ethnography, I’m sure you know it.

Ethnography, there we go. Well, this is the technical terms that we need you for, right? So you could do that stuff, which is like really personable, emotional, trying to get really under the skin of things.

Or we could go down the quant route, right, with quantitative research, which is where we’ll look at big data, we’ll try and harvest information from data. Now, what I see is, and there’s probably more that you could fill us in in, but however you go and get that information, the point is that’s just data, it’s just information at that point. And it seems to me that what we have to do, and the job of the strategist very much is to take some time to analyze what it means, this stuff that we’re finding out, and then to create what I would say, like what you’ve just talked about there, which is insights, which you then use to build the brand.

We then use it to make decisions to enhance areas or to innovate or to shut bits down that are not working. Whatever it might be, we’re now going to use that information. And because we’ve got an insight, which then allows us to then make those decisions.

What do you make of that? Is that about right from your perspective?

No, no, it’s about right.

But it’s definitely not neither or.

You’d use whichever is relevant to whichever question you’re trying to answer. Like we said, just to clarify, there were two common uses of insight. The one I was describing earlier really is more about a consumer insight, a truth about consumers that’s helpful.

But then, like you said, when you analyze all this data, you’re looking for understanding, let’s call it, insight and sense of understanding that’s relevant to the business. And let’s be honest, the vast majority of that kind of data isn’t that useful unless you do some good analysis. And even then, you might find actually this hasn’t been useful.

But I think there are principles. Like if you want inspiration and you want to help develop something that’s going to be really wonderful, you want to do a more exploratory kind of research probably through qualitative. But even having said that, if you want to think about the future and where your brand should be trying to evolve, you might analyze big data like social media data or search behaviors, etc.

to see what people are talking about and thinking about and interested in and see how that’s changing over time. So again, you can blend qual and quant even at that more exploratory strategic stage. But then later on, if you’re trying to evaluate something and decide whether add x or add y is going to be the one to run with, you’re going to need some quantitative to actually…

But here’s another thing. Can I throw something else in here? Sorry, Jacob.

Jacob’s fuming because he’s got all these questions. I’m just going to bomb it just for a second. And then I’ll shut up, Jacob, honestly.

All right. But what do you think about this, right? Because I often think those sometimes, you know, the problem with asking people what they want or what they think is that if you’re trying to be radical, if you’re trying to do the next big thing, if you’re trying to create a category and dominate a category, arguably Coca-Cola did that, right, back in the day.

And so they’re number one for a reason. And they just keep on… because they got there first, everybody else is trying to break in, but they own that box in the consumer’s mind, so it’s very tough.

So if we want to do something radical, going to someone, I think Henry Ford famously said the famous quotation, if I asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses. So he’s like to do a leap in innovation and to do something really radically valuable and different and risky. We find insights, it’s hard to do that work.

What are your thoughts on radical innovation and using insights for that?

Well, having started in insights, I’m a big believer in it. But it’s a bit like if Henry Ford, if that’s what he thought research was like, then he didn’t understand research because you wouldn’t say, what do you want? You don’t.

What you do is, you do what I was talking about before. You talk to people who have just been on journeys, on horses or whatever, and you go, tell me about your journey. And they go, well, I got up this morning at crack of dawn, six o’clock, five o’clock, I don’t know, and I’ve only just arrived and I’m knackered and I’m tired and I’m wet and I’m sore, let’s say.

And it’s like, okay, this is gold dust. It’s like, imagine a… And then you could go to them and say, well, imagine there was a completely new way of traveling that had a roof over your head, heaters.

I don’t know if the first Ford cars had heaters, but play with it. Had heaters here and you’d get there in one hour, not eight or 10 or whatever. That’s research.

It’s just, again, good use of research and knowing what to do and what you can ask people. So, yeah, I think I would have done a decent project for Henry Ford.

Nice. Henry didn’t know anything, did he?

Let’s be honest. He knew nothing. He knew nothing.

He knew nothing. That’s a really good point. So, what you’re saying is you’re trying to find the pain points, you’re trying to find where the brand could potentially add value and you’re not so much asking the consumer, do you want this at that early stage?

Later on, when you’ve got some thoughts based on the early insights, you might then say, what do you think of this new idea?

I didn’t need to look at the questions, but I always do. And I was thinking, when you talk about this, and I kept drawing that diagram, obviously it’s just a Venn diagram, but notice it’s a Venn diagram where the two circles only just overlap, right? And I always think about that’s what you need to do for brands.

The left-hand side is, understand your consumer’s worlds. And like you said, their pain points, the things they do that are related to your world, it’s your category, not everything necessarily. So you understand that and then you go, okay, what about our brand?

And our brand has certain things about it. It’s probably good at certain things. Hopefully there are certain things that it’s uniquely good at.

That would be brilliant. Or something about its history or something about your company that means you could do this in the future maybe that other companies wouldn’t do as well. But you’re looking for that small bit of intersection, and that’s the aha moment.

That’s what you need to do. And that’s what being consumer centric is to me. And finding the intersection between what consumers need and want and what you can deliver brilliantly.

And that’s marketing, not research. That’s marketing, but research can help it.

Well, let’s get into how we actually do that. We’ve talked about how it’s useful and the definitions. But for our listeners, how would you actually go about finding these insights?

Are there any tools or methods that you actually use to uncover these insights?

There are a few, yeah. I think the best ones are things like qualitative will always be a good way of understanding consumer. We mentioned ethnography before, which essentially is where you go in and you observe.

And you can observe people become part of a household even for a while or get people to film and interview the individuals or families around the category, that kind of thing.

So what are you asking them? So I’m just wanting to go a little bit deeper, rather than just like do… Oh, yeah.

What are you actually doing to get that? Well, tell me about the last time you bought such and such or last time you used such and such. What did you do?

Where were you? What was the experience like? Were you happy with the experience?

Was there anything frustrating? Or can you show me? If you’re in the home, can you show me?

Next time you, I don’t know, load the dishwasher, can I film it and ask you some questions? So why are you doing that? Well, I noticed you put the tablet in, you threw it in rather than putting it in the, you just, you’re nosy.

You observe and you probe as to why, because the thing you can get from market research very powerful is understanding, well, why did people do that? Or why didn’t they do something? The more you understand about the why, the more you reveal about their truths and their pain points, like you said.

So that’s what you actually do in those kinds of research.

All right. Well, I guess we can get into measuring brand next. Well, maybe before we do that, are there some examples that we can get into?

Like where you’ve perhaps as in your job, where you’ve uncovered the insight and how our brands use that insight to build their brand or make a campaign or something?

Well, I did a lot. I mean, my main area of research that I specialized in was advertising development. So I think actually with advertising development, like I said, you know, it’s helpful if you come up and you do identify a really powerful insight that you then base your whole campaign in, your whole brand on, let alone your campaign.

But actually where the value kicks in is once you’ve got a decent idea, is learning how to execute it because there’s a big difference between having a potentially great idea with a good insight and then actually being able to execute it. And I found the most rewarding assignments I worked on were where we worked long term with an advertiser. A lot of my big clients were Unilever.

So I worked on brands personally. One of my favourite ones was called Olivio and then it was called Batoli. So it’s the olive oil brand and they make an olive oil spread made of olive oil.

So we had this campaign and it started off okay. It wasn’t brilliant, but you could tell it had some potential. And what we did is we learnt what was it that worked about the idea and what was it, which executions work better than others.

And you were almost having this continual learning cycle to get better and better and better at it. And brand building does take time and you have to keep at something if it’s showing potential. And if you keep getting better at it, suddenly you find a year or two later, you’ve got a big brand on your hand actually with sales going up and up and up and margins going up.

And yes, there were several brands like that I’m very proud of.

What I’m curious about is how you’re taking these insights and making them useful. What’s the…

Okay, well, just take an example. It’s a famous example. I wish I’d worked on this because it’s an absolutely wonderful one, but I find it one of the best ones for explaining the concept, right?

And it’s Snickers. You know the Snickers brand? It’s widely used, but I think it’s worth going through because there is a lovely insight behind that whole brand.

And it’s quite simple, isn’t it? It’s your temperament changes when you’re hungry. And so that’s the truth.

And people go, oh, yeah, yeah, people. That’s where the word hangry comes from, more recent word. And so you go, well, what’s the brand idea?

Well, the brand idea is simply to help in that situation. The big brand idea is you’re not you when you’re hungry, so you have a Snickers. It’s simple.

It’s just the…

But how do you connect those two, right? So it’s one thing to get that insight, but how do you connect it to the customer? Like, how do they know that Snickers is the brand of choice to pick that when you’re hungry, right?

The reason I think they picked that insight or found that insight is because it maps brilliantly onto what the brand already kind of stood for, for years, which is, you know, it’s about… It was a filling snack, isn’t it? It’s a filling snack.

It’s full of glucose because of the caramel and peanuts, which are nutritious. It fills you up when you’re hungry, therefore. But the insight was to add a little bit of interest to that concept, which is, well, you’re not yourself.

So, okay, so all it was, was just taking that idea that everyone goes, oh, people are not themselves. People can get really moody and irritable when they’re hungry. Yeah, they do.

Jacob does, all the time. At least he’s not hungry.

Sickers is my go-to, so they nail about the campaign and brand. Yeah.

It’s solid. So you’re right. You can see how that would translate in.

I guess where it’s amazing is then the creative execution of that, right? So the insight gives you the consumer truth, but then it’s over to the creative teams to actually take that and build a campaign or multiple campaigns with Snickers in order to communicate that powerfully and to then position the brand in that and rooted in consumer truth.

Yeah, rooted in that idea and that insight behind it. I mean, I love this example because actually, originally, it was about divas, wasn’t it? One of the early campaigns were, when you’re hungry and you start snapping at people and acting like a diva, that’s a specific way of bringing the brand idea alive, right?

A specific way, and it’s good, and then you have specific executions of that. But actually, more recently, they’ve got still based on the same fundamental idea, but they’ve got the idea that when you’re hungry, you lose focus, and you don’t perform as well. So it’s a different campaign idea, but exactly the same core brand idea.

So that’s a nice continuation, and it’s still about you’re not yourself when you’re hungry, when Snickers solves it. So I think that brand has clearly benefited from having such a clear idea and playing with it a lot in social media, et cetera, as well as its video ads.

Have you seen the McDonald’s Eyebrows video recently?

Yeah, that’s cool.

It’s interesting on that one.

Yeah, I’m curious on your thoughts.

Oh, wow. It’s caused a lot of debate, hasn’t it? Well, this is a whole topic in its own right, and one of my favorites, which is the value and power of distinctive brand assets.

The more I learn and the more I observe about successful brands and what has made them successful, the more I think that distinctive brand assets are absolutely vital. And yeah, so the reason the McDonald’s ad is interesting is because, well, A, they’re trying to almost create a new asset, which is an eyebrow. I can’t do it.

An eyebrow. Thank you.

I can’t help but do it.

You’ll have to cut to where we can actually do this. You know, as that becomes something that means, hey, shall we have a cheeky McDonald’s, right? I think that’s part of the idea.

And so that becomes a hopefully a phenomenon. And imagine if this builds and people start to actually do that. They’ve created a new social entity that is absolutely wrapped around their brand.

And it’s clever because it is roughly, you know, that the golden arch is M shape. So the fact that the ad doesn’t feature products at all is OK for a brand like McDonald’s, which is so well established. A lot of what they’re trying to do with their advertising is to keep just keep the brand salient, remind people of something they’re very, very familiar with, which is.

And if you have distinctive assets and they’ve got lots, you know, and they use the I love some of their print work with the golden arches being used and really stylized. I think they’re phenomenal as well. So, yeah, so I’m a fan, but I wouldn’t want to do that if I was a less established brand, you know, they’ve got the license to do it.

Totally cool. Well, let’s take a turn from uncovering insights to now measuring brand, which is another iffy subject, but this is what you’re an expert in. So, you know, what are some challenges that brands face around measuring brand and like, why is it important?

Well, there are some, yeah, there’s some definitely big, quite big challenges, I suppose, because the brand itself is quite a nebulous kind of thing. And this goes back to how brands are stored in the brain or actually how almost anything is stored in the brain, how memories are stored in the brain, which is, you know, the complex things, you know, a brand is effectively a collection of words and sounds and images and smells and ideas and feelings that are all stored across multiple parts of the brain. And they just fire together.

You know, if you start thinking about the brand or you’re presented with the brand or you see the brand, whatever, those things will just automatically fire. But when you think about it, those are quite diverse things. And to measure those properly would require lots of different types of technique, which you just haven’t got the time or the money to do practically, really.

So you’re kind of, you’ve always got an imperfect measure, particularly on the softer, more emotional side of things. But having said that, I do think there are probably just, but yeah, I think there are only two real core measures that you really, really need when you boil it down. There are two that are most important by far for a brand.

And they are, one is spontaneous brand awareness. I’ll build on that in a minute or a deluxe version. But essentially, you’re trying to get at whether or not the brand comes power free to mind when people might be thinking about buying the category.

Yeah.

And effectively spontaneous brand awareness is that. It’s what brands can you, what brands of mobile phone or et cetera, can you think of?

Or looking back to the McDonald’s ad, you know, in the office at the lunch break, you want to tie the eyebrows to the lunch break kind of thing.

Yeah, exactly. Well, but actually, let’s carry on with the spontaneous brand awareness thing, because let me just try. OK, I’ve just started using this in a training session.

I’ll try on you. See if it works with a sample of two. It probably won’t, but I’ll give it a go.

If you wanted to buy a cheap mobile phone, what brands might you consider?

Cheap mobile phone?

Yeah, if you needed to buy a cheap mobile phone, what brands might you think of?

Nokia would come to my mind immediately.

What else?

Any others?

Motorola?

Yeah, any others?

I probably wouldn’t think anything beyond those. Maybe Tesco Mobile or something like that. Like a throwaway phone.

What’s the name? There’s a couple of big ones. Huawei is quite a cheap one.

Oh yeah, I didn’t know how to say it, so I wasn’t going to go there.

Oh, you should have said it. But the point is, it didn’t come up with you, but that one just came up with you.

But don’t they have premium options as well? I don’t know.

They do. They’re not that cheap. They’re not as cheap as others, but yeah.

You’re talking to two Apple fanboys, though.

I know, I can tell.

Concepts of like a cheap phone is just like doesn’t probably answer.

Why would anyone do that? But a lot of people need to.

Why would we have anything other than an Apple phone?

That’s your world, isn’t it? OK, another one. OK, if you wanted to buy a mobile phone for a child, what might you think of?

You have children, either of you. How old are they?

Mine’s 10, 8 and 3. And Jacob’s is a little younger.

I thought you were in 8 weeks.

I see 4, 2. That’s too young to start thinking about it. But 10, you’re going to have to start thinking about it if you haven’t already.

I know. Well, yeah, that’s another conversation, isn’t it? But yeah, I mean, weirdly, I would probably give them hand-me-downs, do you know what I mean, of iPhones.

So that’s in my head. But you’re right. If I was to buy one, what would I buy?

And that’s really hard. And I guess for young children, loads of things would come to my mind, like, you know, internet access is a question. So I guess, you know, if we’re asking parents about that, we would say, you know, what would come to mind?

Well, I’m a concern that they have unrivaled internet access. Like, that could be problematic potentially for their mental health and so on and so forth. Do I allow them on social media?

Again, social health-ish, you know. But then they want to communicate with their friends and I’ll want to speak to them. So there’s loads of things that would play in and it’ll be such a difficult thing.

But weirdly, I wouldn’t think of a brand. I’d probably think of what restrictions can I put on a smartphone to limit it. But yeah, I don’t know if that helps, but that’s kind of the sort of conversation I can start having.

There’s a lot going on, isn’t there? And so you have brands that come to mind. And, you know, like, for example, some people say Apple in this context because they perceive it to have better safety features.

Exactly. Right. Yeah.

That becomes very relevant to children or it could be a charge. They’re going to lose it probably. And maybe it should need to be a cheap one.

So that overlaps them with the same sort of bands we talked about before. But if I now say, you know, what if you want a really stylish, high performance mobile phone, you’re probably going to. Well, you said Apple all the time.

But that’s also Apple, Apple, Apple.

Just completely, just complete bad boys.

This is what I think is quite interesting about. These are category entry points, aren’t they? Yes.

They are different reasons and contexts and motivations why different people, or the same people at different times might choose, you know, and therefore they might think of different brands depending on the associations that come to mind, you know, which certain bands will come to mind. And Apple, because it’s, and Samsung and others, because they’ve been around so long and have advertised so much, will probably come up in multiple contexts. Whereas a newer brand like Huawei tends to come up at least initially more in one context, like, oh, I can get a cheaper version, you know, it’s as good as a Samsung or an iPhone, but it’s, you know, quite a lot cheaper.

So they, you know, it’s fulfilling that niche. But the big debate in marketing really is whether or not a brand has to just stand for one thing and dominate that area, that need or a few needs, or whether that brand should try and just keep on trying to be associated with more and more category entry points in order to grow and grow. And it will have to.

If it wants to become big, it will need to come to mind in more and more contexts over time.

Could you just define the category entry points for our listeners?

Yeah, it’s, I think of it as a usage context or a purchase. It’s a context. Yeah.

So it’s like all of the really needs is the really simplified way of thinking about it. People have different needs within the same category. You buy something, you know, you might buy it for a particular need.

Someone else might buy it for a different need. But it’s a bit more complex than needs. It’s like wine.

Think about wine. You might buy wine to unwind on your own at the end of the working day. You might buy wine to relax with your partner, or you might have it when you want to celebrate or go out for a special occasion.

Or you might just do it to forget the world. You wouldn’t put that one in the research, probably. Sorry, I should have chosen a more ethical example.

We’re on wine. Those were all different sorts. You could call those different category entry points.

And some people will be thinking of one of those or several of those. But there will be a certain number and you can quantify these things. You can find out of all the times when people buy wine, how many of them were because of that kind of context.

And you can usually distill it down to about 10-ish for a 12th category. They’ll cover most of the consumption and purchase of a category. And just knowing what they are is brilliant because then you can start…

You literally can ask that question to ask you for all 10. It’s a bit laborious. That’s why I said that’s the deluxe version of spontaneous brand awareness.

Because the undeluxe version is show up. We’re not going to split it out by all those different category points. We’re just going to ask what brands of mobile phone could you think of?

And what you’ll do is you’ll think about your needs and you’ll answer. And if someone else is buying for their child at the moment, they will have their needs in mind and they might mention different brands because they’re thinking of different ones.

So we have brand awareness as one way to measure. And then what is the second one you’re going to mention?

The other one is consideration or anything like it. Because effectively, you’ve got two things. Does the brand spontaneously come to mind so it’s got a chance of being, they call it, what’s it called, in your consideration set, that comes to mind, you might think of two, three, four, I don’t know, two or three.

How’s that different to awareness?

Well, you see, one is more, yeah, it’s just a measurement thing. One is like it has to be so powerful, it spontaneously comes to mind. You’re not prompted with the brand.

It’s just it comes to mind because it’s relevant to you and it feels like a good choice. And as soon as something that spontaneously comes to mind, it has a head start. But you may, your rational self can also can either, can overrule that.

It can say, like, okay, I’ve been in this circumstance, right? Last car. I think, well, what car should I buy?

I haven’t got company cars.

Yeah, company car. Guess what brand came to mind in my head first? As the car I should consider buying next time.

Have a little guess. Think it coming. You probably know my age.

You know what kind of brand.

I’m joking. Maybe. Have you noticed your taste, Dan?

This is really hard. It is a hard one. I think you’re quite a professional kind of guy.

I think you’d probably like to drive something. Probably. I don’t know.

Maybe. I mean, I might insult you now. I’m going to say Mercedes or BMW.

Maybe Audi. That kind of prestige kind of car. That’s where I go with it.

Yeah. Well, when I had company cars, they were almost all Audis, one BMW and Mercedes. Yeah.

Spot on. But when I thought, but more recently, I thought, well, you know, I think what I really want is a Tesla.

Right.

Yeah. You see what I mean?

Conscious consumer wants to kind of make sure that…

And they’re really cool, like Knight Rider. So, you’re too young, probably.

Pretend to be Elon Musk as you drive it, which is even better.

Well, I’m not sure.

Well, I mean, that was sarcasm.

Move on. Wait, wait, I’m losing track now. Wait, wait.

So, that came spontaneously to mind, because I really like them. I think they’re really cool, right? But, obviously, having recently been made redundant, it’s not the best time to buy something that is like 60,000 pounds, right?

So, I ended up buying a Ford, the first Ford I’ve ever had. It’s a very sensible car. Because my rational, you know, you don’t always…

You can’t always. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don’t. If it’s lower price, easier, you’re probably more likely to anyway.

But what I mean, and also, it could be that the one that comes to mind first, you rule out, you know? Like, I remember a friend of mine used to love Alfa Romeo’s. Absolutely just loved the brand, loved the brand.

But they never bought one because apparently they… I’m allowed to say this on your podcast.

You can say whatever you want. I mean, this is educational. But yeah, careful, careful to slur a brand too.

His perception…

He said that he thought that Alfa Romeo would always break down, right? They’re not reliable, so it would cost him a fortune and be really annoying. So again, spontaneously the brand came to mind.

But in that circumstance, he wouldn’t consider buying one because they break down.

Other brands of car are available, they may also break down.

They’re apparently the bad ones, yeah. Lots of bad ones. I’ve heard that Electric Jaguar’s break down.

But again, I can’t say that because it would imply…

I’m sure there’s a lot of parties going on. But we’ll move on.

So that’s why you need both. It’s almost like which one’s come to mind and then would people actually consider it? It can also play a part.

So the two together. And it’s a bit like system one, system two, the different parts of the brain really as well.

Your emotion and your rationale are different.

These are two go-through, two things to measure brand awareness, consideration. Do you talk about loyalty or equity or things like that?

Well, I mean, it depends how you define it. There are lots of ways of measuring, but you’ll get this. If you combine those two measures I just mentioned, you’ve got something that’s going to be very similar to a fancy brand equity complex metric.

You’ll get a similar answer because those are the kind of variables you’re trying to explain obviously quite often with the more deluxe version. After that, you want diagnostics to help you understand why it is on the consideration. If you’ve got a lot of people saying, I won’t consider it.

Well, you need to find out why and there might be a barrier that you might be able to overcome, etc. After that becomes for me diagnostics. If I want to measure my brand’s equity or strength or whatever you call it, then that is what I do.

How do we get into diagnostics? What’s that involved?

Well, I mean, the first one be, we mentioned like you could have a brand that comes to mind or not comes to mind. Like the mobile phones we were talking about. You want to, a nice breakdown is, well, which category entry points are my strong at and which category entry points are my weak at?

That would be your first diagnostic. And if you’ve asked all 10 versions of the question, sensibly rotated for good research practice, but you would have that automatically. You would see, okay, I’m strong on these ones, really weak on all of these ones.

Already, I’ve got something really valuable. And I think I’m pretty sure that is in my book. Yes, it is.

I’ll find the reference later, but that one. But just so you know, it’s like you’ve got the different category entry points. And it’s like, you know, on this particular example, I’m trying to remember.

Yeah, you’re strong on the fourth one. You see the fourth one along, your particularly big share. Yeah, that’s right.

The total sort of shaded area out of the big square is your mental market share. It’s a way of thinking about mentally how much of that total do you occupy and where are you strong and how big are the widths of it? How often do these category entry points get used when people are buying?

So you can automatically, strategically, you can think around this and go, oh, well, I think we’ve got an opportunity to push up number three. And it’s one of the big ones. We can work out what that might be worth.

It’s very similar to…

Can we tie that to a brand, for example? Let’s say the Snickers example, if we’re going down there, how would that measurement inform, I guess, strategy or campaign?

I have to think about what the different category entry points are for Snickers kind of thing. And one might be an afternoon… You know, people get…

What’s the word? An energy dip at about four o’clock in the afternoon is a kind of thing. You know, that’s a target for snacks, for filling you up when you’re hungry kind of thing.

So that would be one. Some people eat them for breakfast, not very many. That would be one of the smaller category entry points.

But some people have chocolate. It’s not very healthy, I know, but they do. But for breakfast, it’s something very quick.

Lots of people use chocolate when they’re traveling. You know, because they haven’t got time for a meal, if they’re taking a train somewhere. You can imagine there’s a whole set of those.

You see where Snickers does really well, and it might have an opportunity in an area that it doesn’t do well. And then what you might do is think up a cool ad or two around the, I don’t know, the Diva campaign that sat on a train. If you’re trying to…

Sorry, I’m not trying to do a creative solution here. I’m just saying…

I love that you were saying to focus on the areas that were actually low. You can see what you’re known for, but analyzing what you’re bad at or some areas that need improvement could also be an area to focus if it makes sense.

Exactly, but that’s where you’ve got to be careful. That’s where there’s a big debate in the whole industry at the moment is, should you go for all of them, all of the category entry points regardless, should you just go for a very small number, but that will limit your growth? Or is it that you actually…

It’s more just about, well, what’s the next one? What’s the next closest to where we are now, where our brand and what it stands for actually fits reasonably well? And if we went for that space, it wouldn’t undermine another space.

Now, I’m a big believer that there are certain price things where if you try and be one, you can’t be the other. You can’t appeal to people who want a sort of snobby, elite, cool aloof, expensive thing to show off versus people are looking for the cheapest. A brand, it can’t straddle those two category entry points.

You might argue they’re different markets, but that’s another nuanced debate. Because the associations you need to come to mind for one will undermine your credibility in the other. It means you don’t come to mind for the other, or if you do, you get rejected anyway.

Is it credible and possible for a brand in the brain to stand for all of those things credibly or not? But if you want to grow, you’re going to have to think about at least more than you’ve got now. You’ll need to capture more category entry points than you’ve got now.

You mentioned the big idea earlier. I don’t know what your take on that is, but it seems to me that you can dominate multiple entry points if the concept for what you’re stood on can map across.

It’s broad enough. That’s right.

And if it isn’t, then you have to, if you do want to go over to another sort of entry point, you might have to do work on the core. Now we can go over after these. So it seems to me that that would be the sensible thing.

But as you say, how far can you stretch that before it snaps? Because it’s risky to do that, right?

So, yeah, the good thing is if you build up distinctive assets, yeah, I say that phrase every day 10 times. I can’t believe I nearly forgot it. If you’ve built those up, then a lot of them, then even if you move to a different big idea, you’ll still have that connection, which will help to make sure your brand is at least still very salient and your new advertising will still be well branded because you’re using your assets to make sure they are, even if you’ve moved into a completely new big idea.

I always think big ideas are things you should try and hang on to for five or 10 years. But once you’ve maxed out on doing whatever you can with that idea, but sometimes you do need to actually move on. But keep your distinctive brand assets consistent right now.

Bring new ones in, but don’t chop and change those ones because those are your glue. That’s what you need. Bye.

It reminds me of, I believe, Volvo went into trying to go into sports cars, and they’re known for safety, and they went a little bit too far outside of what they were known for.

That’s a good example, but there probably is a way they could do that, but they would have to… Yeah, because you’re right, they’re big things.

Porsche went into SUVs, and they’ve not been… I don’t think they’ve been massively successful, but I think they sold quite a few. So, it’s kind of like, and there was a lot of discussion around that as well, like, can Porsche go into a family kind of car, really?

But then there’s a lot of people that were like, hey, I love driving my Porsche to work, but then on the weekends, I’ve got to take my kids around, but hey, I need a weekend car, so why don’t I just buy another Porsche?

Otherwise, I’d have to go to Volvo.

No one wants that. But that’s the thing, isn’t it? And if the big idea is enough, like if you’re based in luxury and therefore you make your SUV around the city.

The most luxurious SUV, yeah. Also, I don’t know if someone told me the other day that Porsche doubled its sales value when they went into the SUV. So it’s like you have to do a lot of damage to your existing business for that doubling, you know what I mean?

And yeah, but it’s like you say, what did Porsche stand for before? I suppose, did they stand for sports? Yes.

But they also, like you said, stand for luxury and prestige as well and other things. So they had enough, like you said, to make it more luxurious. Very hard.

A premium brand that came to mind is Tabasco Sauce. So I’ve noticed that they’ve come out with a whole line of different flavors and mayonnaise and other things. And it’s not cars by any means, but we’ve just had it here.

And what I noticed, like my wife, we had Tabasco mayonnaise, and she’s like, no, I don’t want that. It’s spicy. So it’s like, can they actually go into that segment when Tabasco is known for like a hot sauce?

So it’s a bit of a learning curve, I guess, for consumer.

I haven’t seen this one. Is the mayonnaise spicy then? Or is it just plain mayonnaise or not?

It’s just like a spicy mayonnaise. Yeah.

That kind of makes sense. You know, there’s still a thread, isn’t there? I thought there’s a fascinating case study.

That was used a lot, but Dove. Because Dove, without looking up, I’ll probably get my dates and my facts wrong. Right.

But I think the figure is 37 years. Dove existed for 37 years with a single product, the original cleansing bar. And they grew very well because it was very different from soaps.

And they expanded internationally, across tens and tens and tens of countries, before they then extended a little, even a little bit, into, I think it was bath gels, shower gels, and deodorants was next, and there were, you know, some closer-to-home ones. And then they even changed the different target audience, where they did the Dove Men range, and now they do Baby, Baby range as well. And it’s like, they have changed, they started off standing for Moisturizer.

And of course, now they stand for really quite something much bigger, and like you said, goes across and is relevant across lots of different categories and products and brands and things, and the target audience.

So Dan, I’ve got a little sort of question to just change lanes just for a minute. So we started off, you know, and Jacob hinted at the fact that insights is quite hard, you know, it’s quite tricky for some people. And I wonder if one of those things is that sometimes it’s hard to get in front of the right consumer to ask the right questions.

So even if you’ve got all the brilliant questions and all the great thinking, like how do you get the right people to engage with you? Particularly if, let’s say, let’s take a different tactic. We’ve been talking about established brands.

Let’s say I’m a startup, right? And I’m like, I don’t really know who my target audience is yet. I haven’t got product market fit yet.

Like I’m not really sure, but I hear what you’re saying. We should ground everything based on insights. So I just wondered what your thoughts were in terms of them and based on your experience, how do you get the right people to engage with you in an insight scenario?

And what tactics have you used in the past to make sure that you can get in front of them?

Yeah, it can be very hard depending on, like you say, who your target audience is. In fact, Porsche drivers or equivalent, actually, people who might consider buying a Porsche, quite tricky to get hold of, or high net worth individuals if you’re a premium bank, you know, that’s really hard. Yeah, in fact, you have specialist interviewers for that kind of job.

You have interviewers who are very skilled and very articulate and very persistent and understand what a, say, a busy, very wealthy business person might be like. And it’s much more of a personal engagement to even secure the interview in the first place. So there’s that side of it.

There are specialists. It’s therefore much more expensive. I think your question about start-ups is interesting because, yeah, you’ve got to have, obviously, you’ve got to have an idea of who your target audience might be before, you know, in order to…

Re-invest in time and effort and, yeah.

That’s a good start, actually. Just presenting what you’ve got, your start-up concept, to diverse, or at least, obviously, not completely relevant people. You must have a vague idea of who it might be relevant for.

But anyway, to present it to diverse people, you might be interested and understand which group gets excited and for what purpose. You’re always exploring with them whether or not they would find it relevant and why. And then that can be used to go, oh, actually, we’ve got these two key segments that are going to be particularly important for us.

And it can really help shape your proposition and even your product, of course, how it’s developed. So, it’s almost even more important, I think, to engage, to find your target audience and the proposition if you don’t know what it is.

No, that’s really smart advice there. Just get stuff out in front of people and ask them. It’s the whole design thinking sort of phenomena as well, which is like prototype something.

Quick and nasty and get it in front of somebody. And then refine and build and create based on that.

And try different things early on until you find something that looks like it’s going somewhere. And then you can develop that thing. And yeah, definitely.

And research is, but I think it’s pretty good at that, actually, if you choose sensibly.

Yeah, I used to work in-house and help set up an in-house agency at Capital One, the big fintech. Some years ago now, we had a whole team who were, you know, we called them the research team, the design research team. And we set up, there was a there’s a lab we set up in Old Street in London, where literally, you know, you could go and stand behind a screen.

So I had loads of projects running through, we were always testing new kind of the way we were, I was running a creative sort of department there. So we were like, testing like how letters looked and how you know, parts of the apps looked and stuff. And it was just so awesome to watch the researchers go and do that.

And I used to encourage my team, who were a load of designers, get down there, your stuff’s going and testing on Thursday, get down there, you sit there and watch consumers do this, watch it, because you can get a report afterwards, right? But it’s not the same. Go and feel it, go and experience it, get in front of people.

And I think I encourage all founders to do that, right? And anyone involved in brand building, get out from beside from behind your desk, and go talk to real people who are going to actually pay money for your thing. And if you’re not doing that, you’re at a disadvantage because you can’t get, you know, you just don’t get that, you know, just the insight from just being there and the fuel that that gives you to kind of go and improve things, I think is crucial.

Yeah, I’ve visited InterIKEA, which is one of the divisions of obviously of IKEA in the Netherlands, and their office was above in IKEA. And they had a kind of opportunity to experiment and to put concept new concepts, new product ideas and to go and talk to consumers just literally downstairs. And I thought, oh, that makes so much sense.

That’s how it should be, right? Yeah, absolutely.

I love it. I love it. Jacob, sorry, we’re not asking a question.

Look at his eyes.

We’re just getting off to the, you know, the hour mark, I believe. I just want to ask about the, you know, the future in terms of branding, measurement, insights, like where you see trends going in the branding world.

You’re probably going to get this answer a lot in the next, well, you probably had it already on your podcast and you will again in future, but it’s going to be to do with AI, isn’t it? It absolutely is. You know, already over a while, for a while now, there’s been this trend for, I guess it’s called personalization.

It’s not really personalization. It’s more, you know, trying to use digital technology and the data that people who buy media have about the people, about everyone, to identify different types of people, right? And so that you can target them with more appropriate and compelling messages and creative, right?

And to some extent, that’s already happening. But I think with, before I joined you today, I put into ChatGPT, because I haven’t done this before, but I thought it’d be quite interesting. I said, write a magazine ad for a sports car that would appeal to a 50 plus man who doesn’t want to appear to be having a midlife crisis.

Now, please do not assume that that is me.

I was going to say, ask him for a friend.

Ask him again. And what it produced wasn’t bad. And of course, as with all ChatGPT stuff, it was very, very well written, perfectly written.

It’s not going to win any creative awards, but you can see, yeah, that’s relevant stuff. That’s relevant stuff. And it’ll only get better.

And I didn’t, you know, I didn’t play around with it. You start playing around with it and say, do it in this sort of, you know, please do it in this sort of style. It’s kind of like, well, now that’s where we are at the moment.

And we’re also at the moment where you can go into software to create relevant visualizations around, around whatever it is. I don’t think it will therefore be that long before the AI algorithms will figure out on the spot, will create different both copy and visuals for different formats that will be actually pretty clever.

That’s almost certain. So it knows that this type of thing will be compelling to you. So it will maybe fit it out on the spot and you’ll be drawn to it.

You’ve got to be very careful with this stuff. I remember seeing this embryonic forms of this a while ago where what it did, it had this ad, but it could change the appearance of the character, the actor in the ad, change it from brunette to blonde and for different sort of ethnicity. Can it put a beard on it?

That would be very appealing for me.

Yeah. That’s possible now. For global advertising, you can make it look more like the person if that’s what you want or less like.

When you log in to Netflix and you log in to your wife’s and it’s all rom-coms and pinks and serif typefaces and you go to mine, it’s like action movies and sky-fi and big…

Exactly. But it’s that kind of technology, isn’t it? But it’s more the creation on the spot.

That is almost basic compared with this new AI that can actually, effectively, will be able to create marketing content that’s tailored.

Just like insights on steroids, isn’t it? AI.

That’s the thing. A lot of people talk about trends and things and trying to unearth what people want. You can use big data.

You can use this technology to sort of say, explore all your big database and all things you’ve learned about a particular product category or pain point. What are the pain points? We’re just scratching the surface.

Tell me about the pain points related to this. They can look at what people have said on social media or what they’ve typed into search boxes, I imagine, and summarize it for them. It seems that the main pain points in this category are da, da, da, da, da.

Here’s a question. Do you think that the ability of AI might overtake the human in relation to insights and research?

Yeah, probably. I think it’ll do that quicker. That will happen sooner than the creative side of actually producing an ad.

That will take longer, because that is a much more human thing. But analysis, effectively, is something that computers are really good at. And at the moment, I’m working with a company that can do eye tracking.

So you present people with an ad and it shows you where they will look and how long they will fixate and whether they’ll notice the brand name or whatever, all that kind of stuff. But it does it based on AI, so you don’t actually ask any response. It’s just learnt through so many examples where people will probably look.

Like, it’s not that hard because it’s like, okay, look, I think… You can go, I haven’t…

That’s why you’ve been waving his hand.

Okay, well, I was sort of doing things, you’ve backfired, didn’t it? But for example, movement, we already knew before the AI existed that people tend to look at moving things or bright colours or where people are looking. You go, oh, what’s that?

You look where they’re looking. There are all sorts of little things I learnt over the years. But of course, the AI algorithm has learnt this and more and how they interact.

So you don’t need consumers. It’s remarkably close when you actually look at real data versus simulated data about where people are looking. So suddenly you can do by tracking for a fraction of the cost.

Very useful. So it’s happening already.

Robots are coming, guys.

Do you have any other questions, Matt, before we close up?

No, no, not really. I suppose the classic one we like to sort of end with, Dan, is where do people get in touch with you? If they want to know more, if they want to hire you, like, how does, you know, where do we find you?

I think the two favorite places, I mean, there’s smartmarketing.me, a website, so just, you know, www.smartmarketing.me is a good place. I put all pretty much all my illustrations there and an explanation of them, which means you don’t actually have to buy the books at all. But don’t, don’t just edit that bit out.

Don’t tell your publisher that you said that.

That’s fine. Or LinkedIn. I’m a big, I’m a big, big use of LinkedIn.

And, you know, I check the messages all the time. So just connect with me on LinkedIn. And unfortunately, Dan White is a really, really common name.

So you’ll have to do Dan White, author of The Smart Marketing Book or something like that to find me. I think those are the best. And also on the website, I’ve got my, you know, you can do a web show and get in touch anyway.

Well, Dan, it’s been amazing having you part of this. Thanks for carving out some time. And I know we’re recording this quite late at night.

So we really appreciate you staying up with me in the UK here to accommodate an early start for Jacob over in Australia. So thank you.

You’re very welcome. Thanks very much.

Thanks.

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