In this episode of JUST Branding, we unlock “Logo Design Secrets” with the esteemed Ian Paget, the creative mastermind behind Logo Geek. Ian, a celebrated logo designer and author (How to Make a Living Designing Logos), has made a notable impact in the branding world through his visually stunning and memorable logo creations.
Our conversation begins with Ian sharing his journey into logo design, then we delve into the intrinsic value of logos, their role in business success, and examine real-world examples of impactful logos.
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Ian provides insights into the attributes of a good logo, common pitfalls, and how to choose the right logo designer for your business.
We explore the logo design process, current trends, and touch on the future of logo design, including Ian’s thoughts on AI’s role in the field.
Finally, the episode offers practical advice for entrepreneurs on leveraging logos for brand success and for designers on building a successful career and personal brand in the industry.
Join us for this insightful discussion that bridges the perspectives of both business owners and designers in the world of logo design.
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Transcript (Auto-Generated)
Hello, and welcome to JUST Branding, the only podcast dedicated to helping designers and entrepreneurs grow brands. Here are your hosts, Jacob Cass and Matt Davies.
Hello, fellow brand builders. We interrupt your regular programming for a very special announcement. From August 27 to 30, join us for the Brand Builders Summit, a transformative four-day free virtual event designed just for you.
Whether you’re a creative business owner, designer, strategist, marketing professional or entrepreneur, this summit will help you become an extraordinary brand builder. There’s going to be live Q&As, workshops, expert panels, networking opportunities, and thousands of dollars in bonuses and prizes. With 28 speakers, including industry experts, this is your chance to elevate your branding game.
Join the waitlist now at brandbuildersummit.com to secure your free spot. That’s brandbuildersummit.com. Now back to the show.
Welcome to today’s episode of JUST Branding. We’re thrilled to have a special guest with us today, someone who’s made a significant impact in the world of logo design and branding. Our guest is none other than Ian Paget, the creative force behind Logo Geek.
Ian’s a renowned logo designer and author with a passion for crafting visually stunning and memorable logos that help businesses stand out. With years of experience in the industry, he has worked with a diverse range of clients from startups to established brands, delivering designs that perfectly capture their unique identities. Ian’s not only a talented designer, but also an influential voice in the design community.
Through his popular blog, podcasts, book and social channels, he shares valuable insights, tips and resources that inspire and educate fellow designers worldwide. I’ve personally known Ian for a good decade, maybe two. I’ve lost count now.
We often chat. I’m surprised it’s actually taken this long to get him on the show, but today is the day. We’re going to go deep into one of my true passions, and how Ian and I first met is actually around logo design.
We’re going to explore logos from both the lens of a business owner as well as a designer, which we have many listeners on the pod. Without further ado, welcome to the show, Ian.
Thank you very much, and thank you for that amazing introduction. I’m very honored to be here, as I said prior to this, a big fan of both of you. I’m looking forward to this and excited to be on.
Me too, Ian.
Awesome to have you on.
Let’s get into your journey perhaps, or a bit of context, like how you got into Logo Design, like how you started, maybe some inspiration.
Sure. I’ll try not to go into too much detail, but basically from a young age, I’ve always had an interest in art, creative things. In terms of actually getting into graphic design initially, my very first job, I was quite lucky in the right place, at the right time really, because I managed to get this opportunity working within a medical company where a really small percentage of the job was graphic design.
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At that point, I didn’t have any background in graphic design. I didn’t know how to use any of the software. It was primarily an admin role initially, and a really small percentage of that job was graphic design.
But through curiosity and asking questions and trying out things at home, and this was when I was quite young, probably about 20, I was learning stuff on the job and picking up different skills and gradually getting more and more experience. And that job, over the space of five years, it evolved from not knowing anything to being almost an exclusively full on graphic design position, doing print based graphic design. And then from there, I moved on to a web design company.
And it was there that I started working on logo design. And I found I really enjoyed working on logo design. But one of the issues in that job is it was like my, my role was to work on pretty much any graphic design that they needed.
It was primarily web design, but I also did exhibition stands. And now and again, a logo would come in. But it was, it was kind of like here and there.
It wasn’t, it wasn’t anything substantial in that role, but I did enjoy it. So that was kind of what I was doing as my full-time job. But at home, since I left college, I’ve always had side projects on the go.
So initially, it was stuff that just excited me. So, you know, doing things like an illustrated book that never went anywhere to being on MySpace and trying to get a few projects from like bands and stuff like this. And this is all pre-Facebook, YouTube, all this sort of stuff.
So I used to kind of just dabble in different things.
There’s going to be this going like, what’s that?
But yeah, I basically just used to dabble doing all these different bits and pieces. And then I got to know a couple of friends who was building an iPhone game and I started working with them on a number of graphics. And that kind of got me into the routine of going to work, coming home, carrying on working on something.
And it was really at the end of that project where I kind of came to a crossroads really, because it was a very long project and I was a bit burnt out from doing it because it took about four years work overall to actually get this thing finished. And I mean, I wasn’t doing it the entire time. It was kind of on and off over the four years collaborating with friends on this game.
I kind of felt a bit burnt out. So I got to this point where I thought, okay, I don’t know if I want to keep doing side projects, you know, because I was a bit worn out. But then a few weeks, so it might have been a few months to be fair, but a period of time passed.
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And I was talking about with my partner at the time, you know, that I want some kind of project to work on. And in my first job, so at the medical company, I really enjoyed the technical illustration. It was something I felt I was really good at.
I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed like the problem-solving side of things. And it was actually my partner at the time that mentioned you.
And why don’t you consider logo design? Because you seem to be quite good at that. You enjoy it.
I hadn’t done much at that point. And I thought that was a good idea because logo design is something that I could take on. Fairly short projects.
So if I was to do one, I would work on it. And then, you know, two weeks or however long it took down the line, I could have a break or I could choose to work on another one. So it was always intended as a hobby.
It was never intended as a full-time thing as it is now. So I set up a website and I used that as an opportunity to start learning stuff about marketing. Because I’ve always had an interest in lots of different things.
And in my full-time job, I was, it wasn’t just a graphic design role. I became the creative director of the team there. So I was interested in marketing and I was using it as a platform to experiment and try things and show them what could work.
So that’s when I started doing more of the social media stuff, posting on Twitter and it all grow and grow. And over the years, and I’ve kind of rushed through this really, but over the years, Logo Geek, which was always intended as a hobby, has become something that’s really taken over my life essentially.
Ian, just explain what Logo Geek is so we have some context.
Sure. So Logo Geek, I would break it down into two sides at the moment. And this may change in the future, but essentially, Logo Geek, I would define as me.
And I work in two different ways. So either I work with clients directly on things like Logo Design. Logo Design is my main bread and butter, but I do work with my clients on other things if they need it.
And then on the other side, which is the way I see things going really long term with the name itself. I have a podcast, a community, a blog, a book, and it’s basically something I’m slowly building. And long term, I want it to almost become the ultimate resource for helping people to make a living designer logos.
It’s still kind of the thing on the side. Like my main focus is my clients because that’s what brings in the money. But long term, my vision is really for Logo Geek to be really focused on helping designers to make a living designer logos.
And at some point in the near future, I will start working on a separate brand myself.
Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing that, Ian. Like it sounds like a natural journey into becoming a Logo Geek.
It has been, yes.
Yeah. So you’ve gone from this, like, you know, always being attracted to art and then moving into you know, design, graphic design, you dabbled in web, then you got into logos and kind of focus on logos. And now you’re like pretty much all in on logos.
Yeah.
I think one thing that’s really interesting with Logo Design, and I think my social media really kicked this off, is that when I started posting on Twitter, I needed something to post each day and I don’t post as actively as I did back in the days, but I wanted to find new content, fresh content daily. So I was literally finding every article, reading it, sharing it, finding every book, reading it, sharing it, and through doing a podcast as well, interviewing every designer and basically archiving as much as I can about Logo Design. And it’s really become a passion because of that.
And it’s quite scary that when you start writing about it or talking about it, how something as simple as a logo, how deep the topic is, like it’s a very, very deep topic. And even after reading most of the most popular books out there, there are still gaps in my knowledge. Like it’s a very, very deep.
Yeah, the more you know, the less you know. It goes deep, just like brand. You’re on a branding podcast and that’s definitely true.
Well, it’s all tied together. Logo doesn’t live in isolation.
Well, let’s dive in. Like you’ve written a book on it and you’ve studied a lot about logo designs and you’ve designed hundreds of them. So let’s talk about the value of them first.
Like why is a great logo crucial for a business’s success?
Sure, sure. Well, I know this question was coming in. It’s a really interesting question because in a way, and I’m going to shoot myself in the foot by saying this, a logo isn’t the most important thing in the world.
A business isn’t going to be successful because they have a good logo. Like you need a solid foundation and brand for the logo to be successful at the end of the day. I’m glad you answered this one.
Yeah, I think it’s worth saying that. And I actually thought of a funny analogy earlier. So I would see almost a logo as the face of the company.
So if you was to condense a brand or a company down into one single image, it is a logo. And that is one of the reasons why it is so significant, because it is the one single thing that will identify your company. And I see this almost like a face of a person.
Like if you was to consolidate everything that is a brand into a person, it’s essentially their face and the border identities. Well, they wear how they speak and all this sort of stuff. So if you was to put this into a human being, people, whether you like it or not, they are going to make a judgment about that person.
And I think a good person to kind of describe this is, and I don’t know if this reference will make sense to you guys based on where you’re in the world. But in the UK, we have something called X Factor or Pop Idol or whatever it used to be. And there was a contestant that came on, a lady called Susan Boyle.
And she walked on, little old lady kind of in, you know, I feel mean saying this, but you make an opinion about her the moment that she walks on. She doesn’t look like she’s going to sing well. You’re expecting, you know, something pretty awful.
You are making an opinion based on how she looks. And then she obviously opens her mouth and she’s able to sing and she’s become incredibly famous because of this. So I think this is a good example of the importance of a logo, really, is that that first impression, Susan Boyle, she walks out, everybody watching it had an expectation of what she’s going to sing like, how she’s going to be.
They expected her to fail, to come out, sound like, you know, your sort of local grandma doing a little song on the stage. You had an expectation in mind of what was going to come out of her mouth. But obviously, once she became successful, you just associated that face with her and, you know, and everything like that.
So I think that’s a good example of the role of a logo, essentially, is that it really impacts that first impression. So if you think of yourself going to an event and you’re meeting people, you dress well, you try and look your best. People make first impressions based on what you look like, and they do the exact same thing with your business.
If they’re only going to see that logo, that logo needs to have a certain look and feel that correctly represents who you are. That logo is going to make people make a lot of assumptions based on who you are as a company. But once they go through that, if they have a good experience, then that logo doesn’t really matter.
It just helps to identify who you are. But if they have a bad experience, then ironically, that logo is going to be a bad logo because if you ask any graphic designer what’s a good logo, they’re not going to say the Swatchticker. Nobody is going to say that’s a good logo even though technically, in terms of ticking all the boxes of what makes a good logo, it achieves all of that.
People are going to say Apple because Apple is a successful company. They’re going to say the Nike logo even though the Nike logo is just a swish. It fascinates me how a logo is basically an empty vessel until you start associating it with everything about the brand.
I don’t know if I’m answering your question with this.
You’re answering many questions, actually.
As I said, a logo is just one small piece of a giant thing. I think, Saggy, have you summed it up really nicely that a logo is the period at the end of a sentence, it’s not the sentence itself? That’s great.
Yeah, we had Saggy on earlier on our podcast.
I was just going to say one thing I liked about your answer there, Ian, was that you interestingly separated the brand from the logo, right? Which is interesting. You sort of said you have to have a good brand foundation before you get a logo, and obviously those things are often conflated, and you’ve picked that apart really, really well.
I often think of the brand as the meaning people attach to the offering of the organization or the organization itself, and the logo is kind of like the signpost or the label of that. And as you say, it becomes the symbol, the representative of everything else that that business, that company, that organization delivers and the experiences it creates, it becomes so important. So it isn’t that it’s irrelevant to brand, you know, or brand strategy or building a brand.
It’s just that, as you rightly said, it isn’t just that, you know, that becomes the emblem. So you have to think about that. And I love the idea of it being like the face of a person, you know, and there’s so much more to a person than just the face, but it still represents them, it’s still recognizable as them.
And yeah, so super answer.
Yeah, I like breaking things down too. So I see you have your brand and then you have the visual identity of the brand. And the logo just happens to be part of that.
And there’s obviously all these other parts of it that make a company identifiable. Coca Cola is a prime example. Their use of red, their use of the bottle, their use of all these different things.
It’s not just a logo on its own that’s going to make a company identifiable. It’s just one part, important part, but it is just one part of a much broader picture.
Well, let’s go a little bit deeper in terms of what makes a good logo. We’ve talked about what a logo is and what it does and the value of it. But let’s get into the technicalities of what makes a good logo and hear your opinions there.
Sure. I would say probably one of the most important things is versatility. And what I mean by that, if you imagine a logo, and this is really going to make a difference down to what kind of company it is.
But in most cases, you want to make sure that a logo is going to work in situations large, so billboards or storefronts. But then you also want to make sure that same logo is going to work on the side of a pen or a favicon. When I talk about versatility, the more traditional route with logos is that you have the same logo for all different scenarios.
But you can have a logo system where you have lots of different components that work in different situations. And Google is a prime example of that, where they have a different logo for small uses, they do for large. But typically, if you’re going to design a logo in the more traditional sense, you do want to make sure that it’s going to work in all those different extremes.
And how do you make something versatile? Probably the most important thing is simplicity. And simplicity helps with memorability and lots of other things, but it does also help with versatility.
So making sure that it’s identifiable at large sizes, small sizes, but then also it allows the logo, if it is simple, to work in situations where it’s in four color, where you invert the colors, where it’s a single color, you know, black, white, it’s going to work in scenarios where it’s engraved into things, anything like that. You really, like there’s such a broad range of situations where you want to make sure that this logo is going to work in all these different scenarios. So versatility, simplicity, memorability, they are really important things.
I would also say appropriateness is a very important factor. So as an example, if you was an accountant, there are certain expectations of what an accountant looks like. And I could bore you about semiotics, but if you don’t know what semiotics is, go and look into that because it’s important because as a culture, people have an expectation of what things would look like.
So an accountant, you’re not going to take them seriously if it looks like bubble words, bubble letters or in bright colors. You know, that’s just not appropriate for that particular company. So although you want to create something that’s new and distinct and different as much as you can, it does have to be appropriate and relevant to that particular sector.
And then I would say another thing is making sure that you are different from your direct competitors. And I specify different from your direct competitors, because if you’re a graphic designer or even, you know, business owner, there is the assumption that when you create a logo, that it should be completely different to anything that’s ever existed. But that’s going to be really hard to do.
So it’s better to look at the landscape in which you are going to be compared, and create something that’s distinct and original within that particular market sector. So I could probably keep going, but that’s the primary things I would personally look at. Like I said, versatility, simplicity, making sure that you’re differentiating from your primary industry sector.
Awesome. Well said, well said. What about timelessness?
Like making sure it…
Yeah. So I intentionally didn’t mention that, because I think timelessness is open to debate really, because it kind of depends on the context of the company. Because if you are a company that’s going to be around for hundreds of years, you want to make sure that whatever you’re designing, it’s going to stand the test of time.
And if you’re going to keep changing it every year, in a big way, I mean, subtle redesigns is going to happen. But if you don’t have a timeless identity, then people are going to forget it, and you’re going to have to re-educate your customers every time you redesign it. So timelessness is important if your company is going to last for the long term.
But there are situations where this is irrelevant. Say if you create an identity for an event that’s a one-off, it doesn’t need to be timeless. You can tap into the latest trends and make something that’s really cool.
But the only issue with that, and you can go back to 80s movies in particular, you can tell it’s from a certain time, and it hasn’t held up. But those movies, that doesn’t matter. They didn’t need to be timeless.
Movie logo doesn’t need to be timeless. It just needs to be relevant to that particular moment in time. So that’s why I didn’t mention timeless, because yes, it does matter for companies that want to be around for hundreds of years.
But there’s going to be hundreds of situations where that doesn’t matter. And you can create something for right here, right now. And that could include, you know, pop up stores that’s going to be here for a year or two.
That doesn’t need to be timeless. Films, events, exhibitions, with scenarios like that, just tap into whatever seems relevant at that time. And don’t worry about that one particular thing.
So tailor it to the job at hand.
Tailor it to the brief at hand. Yes.
Okay.
Ian, I’ve got a question. A lot of those things that you talk about are a fascinating answer because they are sort of strategic. You know, when you’re talking about competition and positioning in the marketplace, when you’re talking about making sure you stand out, and that’s the business and, you know, some of the things.
There’s another strategic question I wanted to sort of, you know, bounce off you, and that is, do you ever consider or do you think it’s important to consider, like, if there’s brand extensions, right? So in other words, you know, you might become a portfolio of offerings and so identities might need to relate somehow. How important do you feel like that is in the thinking?
And it’s a very hard one to do, but just wondered if you had any thoughts.
I can answer that. I’ve actually got a couple of projects at the moment that are looking at this. So there’s different ways that we can look at this.
So if you are creating a new product that doesn’t need any association with the others, then you can treat that as its own separate thing. You don’t have to reference any of the other identities. And I think a good example of that is GSK, Glasgow’s myth client.
They manufacture lots of medical products and all sorts of different bits and pieces. And they have all these different products out there in the world, from toothpaste to… I mean, without a list in front of me, I can’t remember any of the names, but none of them look the same.
They just happen to be this whole family of products that are owned by this one company. And they do put their logo on the back, but it’s separate from their main thing. So there’s that side of it.
So, you know, in scenarios like that, where the products don’t have to associate, that can be its own thing. But then there’s the other side of it. And I’ve got a couple of projects on at the moment where I’m dealing with this, where you essentially have the parent company, and then they want to create like a sister company, which is specializing in a particular topic, but they want to make sure that people can tell the two are related in some way.
And why you would want to do that from a graphic design perspective is because when you put a lot of money into marketing one, you’re simultaneously marketing the other because they look the same. And when somebody finds the other one, they can look at it. And because they’re the same styles, and this could be typography or colors or whatever, people know that that product is related to this main company.
And I think Google is a great example of this. They have all these different tools, but they have this identity system, the same colors that run through everything. So that when you see this new application, you can tell the application is from Google.
And you know that this is, you know, that it’s, you got a whole load of expectations that come with this. And this is all branding. You know, you all, all of the branding effort, all of the marketing gets absorbed into those symbols, colors, fonts and all this sort of stuff.
So you can leverage that and you can pull it into all your other, all of your other products. And like I said, it could be font choice, colors, it’s endless things, but it’s basically visual cues. So that people know that this particular product is from this company and they all work together in some way.
So I don’t know if that answers your question, but hopefully it does.
No, absolutely does. And I think, I suppose for anybody listening to this, who’s then thinking about the future, that’s a strategic question, isn’t it? How do you see your business developing?
Are there going to be associations between potentially sub-brands, sub-products, or are you going to go down the Glasgow Smith-Kline route, which is if any new developments take place or extensions, they’re going to be unique on their own. That’s quite an important decision to make early on. I’m often wheeled in as a consultant when it’s a bit of a mess and some of them all look the same and other ones don’t, and it’s complex.
But no, I think that’s an excellent answer and I 100% agree with what you said.
All right. Thanks, Ian. So now we’ve talked about the role of a logo and what makes a good logo.
I’d like to pivot a little bit and put ourselves into the shoes of a business owner who’s looking for a logo designer. Or a logo designer, I should say. How can they find the right logo designer when they may not necessarily know what makes a good logo?
Whenever I speak to my clients, something that I like to do with them is explain why the landscape looks so different. So as a customer, when you’re looking for a designer, you’re going to notice all the prices are different. Like you can literally find a graphic designer that charges $5, but then you can also find and this would usually be agencies, but some individual graphic designers have charged this much, but hundreds of thousands of dollars for a logo only.
And it’s really difficult to understand like why are they charging that much and that? And the main difference is that although the end product is a logo, you are not paying for a logo. That’s not what you’re buying.
That’s not what you’re paying for. You’re paying for the process and the expertise. And I think as a business owner, really you want to be hiring what I’ve heard described as the least risky option.
So if you are a small company, there is low risk. So to be honest, you could probably get away with using the cheaper options or DIY or AI or whatever, because it doesn’t matter, because the risk of that going wrong for you is low. Especially if you’re a blog, you can quickly swap and change that.
So a lot of companies, they sort of go down that DIY route, and that’s a place where some people save money. If you are a large company like Coca Cola, if you were to redesign that logo and get it wrong, the cost of that is going to be probably in millions. So it makes sense for them to spend millions to get that right.
And when I talk about process, it’s going to differ between those two. The lower end, throw something together, it’s going to be fine. At the higher end, this has to be right.
It has to be right. It cannot fail. If it fails, that’s going to cost millions of pounds in lost sales.
So they need strategists coming in, probably a team. They will probably have to pay to fly them over to get them in the room, because to be honest, being in the room with the right people, that does make a difference. You’re probably going to need a team of people to work on it.
You’re probably going to need testing involved. And that’s why it can cost millions of pounds, because they have to get it right. If it does, if it’s not right, it’s going to fail.
So like I said, it really is a broad spectrum. Most companies that are really serious, you ideally want to get this right from the outset for the reasons that we’ve already said, that people make the first impression based on their logo. And this is even more important when you have products where the logo is going to be printed on things.
So if you’re getting signage, packaging, all this sort of stuff, the cost to replace that is going to be significant. So you really want to get this right from the outset. As for choosing the right designer, interestingly, as a graphic designer, it’s very hard to hire other designers.
You really need to look at multiple things. So I would personally, if I was choosing another designer, I would look at their portfolio to see that they are capable of doing the work. I would look at their reputation to see that they are passionate about what they’re doing, that they know what they’re doing.
So somebody like myself and Jacob in particular, if you Google us, you’ll be able to find years worth of videos, articles, all this sort of stuff. And I think that really matters because that gives the validation that their portfolio is probably theirs, because it’s difficult. Designers can fake portfolios, so it is difficult to go primarily on the portfolio.
I would personally organize a call with that graphic designer. If they don’t want to speak on the phone, I would raise it as a red flag. I think it’s important to speak to the person that you’re working with.
And try and understand their process. Process is what you’re buying. You are paying for the process and expertise to get an understanding of how they’re going to work.
Yeah, I mean, I can’t think of anything else that I would go for, but really, make sure that you do your research. It takes time, there is a lot of noise out there within the market. And I think it’s worth spending a little bit more to get it right, especially in situations where, like I said, it’s going to be printed on all different things, because the cost to change that is going to be enormous later on.
So it’s worth getting right from the outset.
Yeah, I agree with you. I’ve just gone through the process recently and did exactly as you said, really. It’s like the first step is looking at their portfolio and seeing their presence online to see if they’re trustworthy and that they are who they say they are.
I don’t necessarily agree with you have to talk to them on the phone. You can gauge via e-mail and the communications and so forth.
I think that’s fair.
Yeah. But yeah, you can get a vibe check from their communications and go from there. And yeah, it really does come down to doing your research as well, as you said, like comparing, interviewing a couple of people or contacting a few people and then making a final decision based on the value that you think they’re going to bring and the risk as well.
So I think you summed that up really nicely. Hello, fellow brand builders. We interrupt your regular programming for a very special announcement.
From August 27 to 30, join us for the Brand Builders Summit, a transformative four-day free virtual event designed just for you. Whether you’re a creative business owner, designer, strategist, marketing professional or entrepreneur, this summit will help you become an extraordinary brand builder. There’s going to be live Q&As, workshops, expert panels, networking opportunities and thousands of dollars in bonuses and prizes.
With 28 speakers, including industry experts, this is your chance to elevate your branding game. Join the waitlist now at brandbuildersummit.com to secure your free spot. That’s brandbuildersummit.com.
Now back to the show.
Ian, how concerned are you as a logo designer, a specialist in the area around the rise in AI? Just throw that one on the table.
This is a big question. There’s different ways of looking at it. First of all, with the way that AI is going, everybody should be concerned because once AI becomes more intelligent than human beings, it can basically do everything that we can do better.
I think that’s the way that things are going. So this doesn’t just impact graphic designers, this impacts everybody. But building a website is really easy now, right?
Building up, there are all these tools. You can take Squarespace, pop in your text and images. There are still people that need websites that cannot use those tools, and they are made as simple as possible.
Also, people, they have a vision for their company, and they dedicate their life, their heart and soul, blood, all this sort of stuff, into their company. I don’t believe that a lot of businesses are going to want AI to define their identity. I believe that they will want somebody to guide them through that process.
Whether the designer uses AI at the end of the process to create that thing is irrelevant because how I see it is that creating the artwork for a logo is really easy. Anyone could do that. You know, once you’ve got, you know, like the Apple logo, it’s an apple with a bite in it.
A student can draw that, but you need to know what the right logo is and what’s going to be successful. So how I see it is that my role long term with the rise of AI, it’s probably going to be more of a consultant kind of role, and I’ll be guiding through people, and I’m already doing that anyway. I kind of see my role as, you know, 50% consultant now really because I’m guiding them through that.
So I think now more than ever, really, it’s reputation, your reputation as an individual is more important now than it ever has been because of the rise of AI. Because it’s going to be easier and easier to create logos. And if you can just type what you want into AI, I do believe that AI will take over a lot of the market for the auto-generated logos for the Fiverr market for the 99 Designs market.
Because a lot of people that approach those, they have an idea in their head and they can describe it. If you can describe that to an AI and it comes out and it does a good job, those people aren’t going to hire somebody on Fiverr or 99 Designs. They’re just going to use these AI software.
But that does sadly mean that I feel that a lot of opportunities that are out there for students, I feel it’s going to take away a lot of that. But in contradiction to this, I do believe that there will be a lot of companies that don’t want anything to do with AI. I personally think there’s going to be a retaliation against AI.
Almost like how people like to say, made in the UK or made in where you guys are. People like to buy local, people like to buy handmade stuff for little fairs, and people like paintings even though you can get a photo or something. People like the handmade, the communication stuff like that.
So even if AI does get to the point, and I believe it will very soon, AI will become better than this, but it won’t replace us. People will always want to work with people. So I’m not concerned.
I do think it’s going to be harder to get into the industry though, to be fair.
I wonder if you’re right. I wonder if the backlash will become, will be so sick of just AI generated stuff in the sense that I think there is a call for it. Obviously, there’s a value in it and the need from efficiency perspective.
But from a deeper human level, there’s a sense of meaning that is lost. If you know that a robot’s basically spat out something, it knows through all its algorithms is the right thing. I do wonder if that trend will come where we look back at logo design and we think, I don’t know, that logo is the button of our founder from their jacket or something.
I mean, that’s a silly example, but it has a bit more of a sense of meaning. Maybe they wore that jacket when they first came up with the idea for the company or whatever. But something that has a bit more depth to it than you couldn’t just describe.
I wonder if it will cause logo designers to have to think harder about the authenticity of the emblems that they’re producing that represent.
Yeah. I’ve got an interesting thing to share. So I see a lot of AI images.
I’m personally really fascinated with AI. So I follow everything. I follow all the news.
And I’m personally kind of tired of seeing AI images. So when I see it and I say it’s AI, I was like, oh, it’s cool, but I don’t care, you know? It doesn’t have the same substance.
And I remember my sister, she shared some images from a violinist, and I can’t remember her name, unfortunately, but she, this woman, she had a photo shoot on the beach, on the, you know, she had it at night time on the beach, and then somebody was waving lights behind. So the while she was playing, you had this cool lighting effect, and they documented that whole process. So you could see how they made it.
They’d done videos and photos and all this sort of stuff. And when I first saw the images, I’m like, oh, that’s a really cool. I wonder how they’ve done that.
And I immediately thought, oh, they must have done it in Photoshop, or it was done with AI or something. But as soon as I saw the videos, all the sort of background stuff, I was like, man, this is so cool. And I got really drawn in.
So I’m kind of wondering really if, as you mentioned, businesses, they will want to be able to say this represents this, this was designed by such and such. There’s this whole story behind it. I really seriously feel there was going to be more of that.
So in a way, designers, we probably need to share more of the process that we do now. We need to share more of the sketches, more of the thinking, more of the ideas. And I think it’s that really which people are going to value.
And in a way that you said, is a company really going to say, oh, this was done by AI? That’s embarrassing. That’s going to be embarrassing for big companies to say that a machine designed their identity.
You want a human being and you want to be able to be proud of who designed it. So, you know, imagine getting a Jacob Cass design and saying, oh, this was designed by this guy who he has, you know, this following in and this podcast and, you know, all these different things. I believe that makes a substantial difference.
So even if even if AI can do better than us, which I believe it will, this is going to be a factor, I believe anyway.
I think that’s a really great insight, Ian, about the process behind it, and designers being more open to sharing that, to show the human side of it and the story behind it. I think you can connect much better with that, like you said. So yeah, I think that’s a really powerful insight.
So let’s talk about the future of Logo Design, like perhaps even trends. There we go there. Have you noticed any trends recently around in Logo Design?
I find trends an interesting thing with Logo Design and you know this, Jacob, but really, if you are wanting to design a successful logo that is timeless, then tapping into current trends doesn’t really make sense. So for that reason, I personally, I don’t really follow the trends so much, so I don’t have a lot to share on this particular question. I personally think that people like Tom Guizmar and Paul Rand, they kind of defined what a successful logo is and a lot of the rules and stuff that they they established back in the 60s or maybe earlier.
All of this is still relevant today more than ever, especially because now logos need to work in even more diverse situations like favicons or social icons, so those trends that they established in the 60s, they are probably more relevant today than ever. One thing I do think is worth bringing up that I did briefly mention earlier, but I believe that the idea of a logo system is probably more relevant today than they have been previously. There’s some really good videos from Sal Bass, there’s a really good one on the BOW logo, and that BOW was basically put on everything.
Now, you can be a bit more flexible, and I used Google as an example earlier because they have their main word mark which is recognizable, and then they have that little G symbol. They’re completely separate logos, but you identify them in different situations. That small G symbol is for tiny use, and that was obviously designed because the Google word mark itself, there’s no individual element of that that’s particularly identifiable on its own.
You couldn’t just take the G and use that, that you wouldn’t recognize it, but having a G with the four colors broken down, that’s interesting. So something like identity systems, I think that’s quite relevant now, but that’s not a new thing. It comes back to the versatility.
The number one thing you said around what makes a good logo is versatility, and the logo system, the identity system helps it become more versatile and recognizable and memorable.
Exactly. So I don’t know if that was the answer that you was looking for.
Yeah. There’s so many different ways to answer it. I was thinking some other trends you’ll notice in fashion or in the order industry, everyone’s going simple or in the fashion industry, they’re all going sans serif and bold and to suit different audiences or attract different audiences.
In the car or automotive industry, all the logos are going flat and much more simplified. So there’s those sorts of trends that are bubbling to the surface. So I was just curious on your thoughts there or observations.
Yeah, I agree with you on a lot of that. Simplicity is becoming, I feel like it’s gone to the extreme really. You see a lot of brands because, and I believe it’s because of constraints with favicons and applications, you have this identifiable symbol and then the word mark.
More recently, a lot of brands have gone down the route of more simplistic boring. I’ve heard people talk about unbranding or blanding in the last few years where logos have been stripped down. I think Johnson & Johnson is an interesting one.
That brand has historically used a script font, but apparently, and I don’t know how true this is, and I’d love to do some research myself in this, but apparently a certain generation can’t read that curly font, that script font. So they’ve moved away from that to make it more readable. And there’s other examples of that where brands have been moving away from these cursive fonts just because new generation to come in and they’re consuming content in different ways to the way that I did when I was younger.
And I think this has impacted people’s abilities to read certain styles of fonts. So I’ve noticed that as well.
Especially in the fashion industry as well. That’s definitely apparent. Everyone from script to sans serif.
Yes.
All right. We’ll move on from trends.
Yeah, I’ve got a question on trends. You know, I think traditionally, you know, you mentioned some of those famous designers from the 60s and 70s. You know, they were very much 2D, you know, working in the 2D space.
Some of them obviously not even on computers, right? But as time’s gone on and, you know, with the rise of digital marketing and everything online and all that good stuff, do you sort of see a need for thinking around animation, how logos move, how, you know, we’ve got the rise of artificial, not artificial intelligence, what’s the other one? Virtual reality.
There you go. I was just looking at Apple’s new Vision Goggles the other day and, you know, there’s loads of stuff that’s going to come through that might mean more thought needs to go into these things. What are your thoughts on sort of interactivity and movement and sound even like for a logo?
There’s an interesting one. I mean, at the end of the day, a logo’s primary purpose is identification. And if you can design an object, you know, a three-dimensional object to identify your business and use that same thing consistently across the board, even if it was something random like a potato, theoretically, that would work in function.
So the idea of more three-dimensional logos in an interactive space and making them interactive in some way, there’s a lot of scope there for play, but you’re always going to boil back to this flat static version. So if you can make that three-dimensional weird thing that people can interact with and play with and make that identifiable still, then the possibilities are endless, really.
Yep. Does that answer your question, Matt?
I think so. Yeah. I think you’re right, Ian.
It’s like you’ve got to design something recognizable. It is that symbol. So, as you say, you can play with that once you’ve got it down.
But what is that? What is that thing? I’ve got one other quick follow-up question.
Because I just like to derail Jacob, you know, planning. Often in projects that I work on, I often come across the question of uniqueness. And you kind of touched on it earlier around, you want to stand out in your marketplace with the kind of the global economy that we work in.
It’s very hard now. I mean, I believe it’s hard for designers now to create something that is truly, you know, a mark that’s never been seen before, because, you know, particularly in the simplicity side of things, it’s very difficult. How do you sort of tackle that yourself?
Like, what are your thoughts on that? And, you know, have you kind of come across any issues where you’ve designed something you think is perfectly unusual and different, and maybe someone else has seen something similar, or some, you know, in the back end of Thailand or something, someone’s created something similar and it causes issues. Any thoughts?
Yes, it’s an interesting one because, you know, we’re at an interesting point really, where there are probably millions of individual designers and businesses that are creating logos all the time. So the odds of you unintentionally designing something that’s already been created or very similar to something that’s been created is going to happen. So how I look at it really is there’s a couple of things that you want to consider.
So looking within the market sector is important. So I think you can do this locally, but it’s worth considering internationally as well. If you’re creating a business, you want to make sure that you look different from that group of companies that people are going to be comparing you with.
And providing that you’re able to do that, and able to protect that mark from a trademark perspective, then it doesn’t really need to be original, I don’t believe anyway. And I’ll give you a good example. So Nike have their Swoosh, but then also there is this deodorant out there called Shaw, and that has a tick.
And I bet if you took the tick of Shaw and stuck it on the side of a shoe and you took the tick of the Nike and put it on the side of the Shaw, a lot of people probably won’t notice the difference between that, because they are essentially ticks. And it’s good to consider also, when Nike was founded, do you really think that Nike was the first brand in the world to create a tick? It’s very unlikely.
It just happens that they were the very first manufacturer of sportswear that created that tick. So as a designer, sure, I think it’s good to try and create something new and distinct. And I think if you’re able to do that, then, you know, happy days.
But the reality is that that’s a very complicated, very difficult thing to do. So I personally focus on the market landscape in which is compared with. And you also need to remember that the the logo is one piece of visual identity.
So you can you can differentiate in other ways beyond just the logo itself. And then you obviously want to make sure that you do your due diligence in terms of trademark checks. And what I do is that I go to this website which is the WIPO.
So the World Intellectual Something Property Database Online. And what you can do is you can drop your logo in there and it will search through anything that could be similar. Trademarking does become complicated because trademark registration versus copyright.
It gives you the ability to protect anything that’s confusingly similar. So you tend to see Adidas, they are very big on this. Anything that’s remotely three stripes or with stripes, they will protect their mark.
They are very aggressive. And also, you know, just colors and shapes, there’s a lot of room really for protecting something when you consider it’s confusingly similar rather than exactly the same. So you do need to do your due diligence to make sure that you couldn’t be confusingly similar to a competitor or doing something exactly the same.
So you have to do those checks. And something that I’ve added into my process when I know that my client is going to be protecting their mark is I do work with a trademark attorney and they do what’s called a trademark opinion. So basically, they will look at it, they will kind of make some assessments, and they will let me know that like the odds of it going through.
But until you actually go through that process properly, you can’t ever be sure. But as long as I’ve done my due diligence, like I’ve checked on the WIPO database, I’ve checked with the trademark attorney, the odds of it going through are quite high. I’ve been informed that in most cases, what tends to cause trouble is names rather than the logo itself.
So that’s my take on that.
And one other tip is doing a reverse image search for a logo mark. So uploading to Google or right-clicking and searching the web for similar marks, you can find things very easily that may look similar. All right.
So you’ve written a book, How to Make a Living as a Logo Designer. We’re going to wrap up shortly. But if you just want to share a little bit about the book, who it’s for, what people learn, and yeah, we can.
Sure. No worries. So I wrote a book called Make a Living Designer Logos.
And basically, there are a lot of how-to books out there. But what I’ve tried to do is share as much real life information as I can about my personal journey. Because I started off wanting to get into logo design, and I’ve gradually built up a brand where I am able to focus entirely on logo design only.
So I wanted to share as much advice as I can. So that’s what the book covers primarily, is my thoughts, advice, tips, and so on. From my personal journey, what’s worked for me, also things, what hasn’t worked, what I would do differently, and it runs through everything.
It is a pretty thick book, and it’s very copy heavy as well. But it runs through everything from starting your first website, building your portfolio all the way through to getting clients, building a reputation and all stuff like that. So I really hope that if you are somebody that wants to make a living as a designer, or already makes a living as a graphic designer, and wants some tips and advice, I hope that it will be appropriate for you guys.
Yeah. I can vouch for this book, Ian. I love the style.
It’s very different to any other logo or branding book that I personally have. It’s very personal, and it’s literally like you’ve just shared your story. It’s not corporate by any means.
It sounds like it’s from you, and it’s like you just share it openly.
I try to do it in a way, because I have a podcast and conscious that people that will probably buy the book will listen to my podcast and probably hear me reading it. Oh, absolutely.
I hear you.
I try to write it in a way that I would say it. And also, you know, being completely transparent, I originally wanted to kind of write the Holy Bible to Logo Design, but I found it very difficult to write. And once I started making it much more personal and relatable, I feel that made it more, you know, it’s a book that doesn’t exist and it was a book that only I could write.
And I hope that anybody that does have an interest in pursuing logo design specifically, I hope that the book will provide some inspiration, tips and advice, so that you can sort of start your own journey and eventually become a guest on my podcast.
There you go. Thank you so much, Ian. One final question, where can people connect with you?
Okay, so I’m basically a Logo Geek on everything. So if you Google Logo Geek, you should be able to find me, but I’m primarily posting on Facebook and Twitter primarily. And X rather.
Branding issue right there.
There you go. Yeah, totally. Don’t get us started.
All right.
Thank you so much, Ian. Thank you listeners and we’ll see you in the next episode. Cheers.
Hey, thanks guys.
